West Bromwich Building Society Tracker Margins Legal Action

Reply to the comment left by "Denise D" at "03/12/2013 - 16:51":

I understand that Denise but it makes no difference to my position.

I just don't see how penalising late comers benefits those who have put their time and effort into the process.

I'm off to Spain for a few days now and will not be posting whilst I'm away...

Reply to the comment left by "Chris " at "03/12/2013 - 16:59":

The only people who will definitely benefit from success in the case are those who have signed up. Any others will have to fight their own corners individually, either alone or with legal help (which will inevitably be significantly more than the join-up fee for the group case).

Reply to the comment left by "Chris " at "03/12/2013 - 17:07":

Chris,

I think there are a couple of principles here:

1. If everyone took the wait and see attitude the fund would still be at zero. Fortunately there are enough people who are prepared to be brave enough to get the ball rolling. It took me about 48 hours back in September to decide to pay my £240 x 4 payments, on the basis that it was the right thing to do for myself but would also (hopefully) encourage others to do the same.

2. Why shouldn't there be an incentive (I see it as an incentive for those joining early, not a penalty for those joining late). Same as you get a better price on Easyjet if you book early.

Personally I'm all for a deadline beyond which new entrants will have to pay more. Those who have taken risk should get the reward. If it were up to me this deadline would be before counsel give their opinion.

Some say in life there are winners and losers. I see it more as winners and victims. The victims are those who play safe, don't take any risks, and blame their situation on everyone else but themselves. The winners are invariably those that take action.

Reply to the comment left by "Mark Alexander" at "03/12/2013 - 14:17":

Mark,

I know I've asked this question before in respect of registering a West Brom BTL tracker that has an account number beginning with 9 I have which is not currently affected by the tracker hike. Your advice at the time was to hang fire as the £240 per mortgage contribution to the class action was only expected to be paid in respect of affected mortgages i.e. those beginning with an 8.

However, following receipt of your email earlier today, I do have a question that does need to be addressed. My question is whether if the class action only covers named persons and more specifically, those numbered accounts supplied and paid for; will those WBBS tracker accounts not currently affected and therefore not paid for, be covered by the class action?

If the answer is no, then I believe it would be wise to have the non-affected trackers covered by the class action. It would surely be remiss of us not to include these currently non-affected trackers in our claim? They could be included in our claim for example, by seeking declaratory relief and a declaratory judgement in respect of the non-affected West Brom trackers. As you have said before, it is only a matter of time before the West Brom raises the rates on the other 59% of their trackers non currently affected by the rate rise. I would not want to have to:

a) be part of another class action if (or rather WHEN!) West Brom raise the rates on their currently non-affected trackers (those beginning with a 9),

OR

b) have to take the West Brom to court by myself to challenge a rate hike on my one West Brom mortgage beginning with a 9 and currently not affected if/when the West Brom hikes the rate on it.

I would much rather have the West Brom tracker mortgages beginning with an 8 challenged at court and damages obtained and a declaratory judgement sought and obtained for those tracker mortgages that are currently not affected so that West Brom doesn't simply just raise the tracker rate on those 59% of tracker mortgages currently not forming the subject matter of this class action.

I am more than happy to pay £240 for this additional mortgage to ensure that it is covered by this present class action. I would be grateful if you could speak to Justin and the QC in relation to also seeking declaratory relief or other such relief as the QC sees fit to ensure that West Brom don't simply just raise the rates on the currently non-affected trackers due to a simple oversight on our part by not seeking declaratory relief at court for the non-affected BTL trackers in addition to damages for the affected BTL trackers.

Reply to the comment left by "Chris " at "03/12/2013 - 16:59":

Yes we do Chris for 100% sure (See recent post from Mark Barrister at Law).

You are in so are entitled to feel completely assured that come the win your problems are solved What you've paid in increased payments will be reimbursed. You are home and on the bus.

My comments while addressed at you as the poster are aimed at the waiverers who are still wrestling with the mistaken view that they can effectively not contribute a penny or any effort for that matter, yet still benefit as you, I and all the others named in the class action will. If their names are not on the class action due to not having paid to join then they will remain after the likely win where they are now - on their own and out in the cold, bound to continue paying WB at increased rate.

If they say after the win to WB "you've just lost a big court case saying you can't rip off borrowers so I'm reverting to paying at old rate and please reimburse what I've paid over the odds since Dec 2013", WB will say "tough luck chum you were not party to the court case so get stuffed".

In fact WB are probably counting on many borrowers adopting this view so that they can still coin it overall notwithstanding losing in court.

Reply to the comment left by "Chris " at "03/12/2013 - 16:59":

Hi Chris,

Yes we know that for sure. Class actions in the UK are on an "opt in" basis only and affect only those claimants that have opted in (and paid their dues in this case). Therefore you can only benefit from a "win" at court if you are a member of the class action. If you are not a member of the successful class action and you wish to benefit from the judgement, then you have to go to court and seek to rely on the judgement in the class action. That means fighting it out on your own. Unless the judgement is a binding precedent (which it won't be in the High Court) you can only cite it as being of persuasive effect and you are still at risk of adverse costs should you lose (unless you have ATE insurance in place). You will also have to pay your own legal costs should you lose (unless you're on a Conditional Fee Agreement or a Damages Based agreement) as you can't recover them from the winning party. You may also be subject to adverse costs if you fail to beat a Part 36 or Calderbank offer. Add to this the fact that the ATE premium is now irrecoverable even if you do win save in very limited circumstances (which in any event don't apply to the subject matter at hand) and fighting it out on your own suddenly starts to look very unappealing.

Contrast the "opt in" position in the UK with the "opt out" position in the USA for class actions whereby all members of an affected class are automatically included on a claim unless they choose to opt out. Therefore if the claimants win, all members of the affected class of persons (unless they have opted out) win.

I believe the confusion is stemming from a belief (albeit mistaken) that class actions in the UK are on the same basis as class actions in the USA. This may have something to do with the fact that class actions are a much more prevalent feature of the US legal landscape than that in the UK where they are not as well known or as widely used.

My current thinking is that a line will be drawn in the sand a week before the our case is referred to the Courts. After that stage no more cases will be accepted until such time as the case has been heard in the Courts.

The outcome of our case will determine the price for people who wish to instruct our team after we have won the case. Figures of £1,500 per case are being discussed. Other lawyers will no doubt compete for the business and may charge less, however, they will not have the benefit of the experience of our legal team and not will they have our QC's and barristers opinions. Therefore, people will pay their money now and take their chances or pay their money later and take their chances. The alternative will be to pay West Brom what they want.

A few weeks ago I told you I was witholding 1% of what I know. That figure has now risen to 40%. I'm not going to spill the beans now, save to say that I now know for certain we will have all the money we need to fight the case when we need it. Anybody coming in now is doing themselves a favour as the group are no longer reliant on any more people joining. Please don't ask me how I can say this because I am not at liberty to tell anybody (not even you Dean!) at this stage.

I am also now confident that we will win one way or the other.

Sorry about the cloak and dagger stuff, you will all have to trust me on this for the next six weeks or so. The case will be referred to the Courts by the end of January 2014 at the latest.
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Reply to the comment left by "The Man From Nowhere" at "03/12/2013 - 17:37":

I can't see how an unaffected account can be included, I need to take advice on this.
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Reply to the comment left by "Mark Alexander" at "03/12/2013 - 18:24":

I believe a request in the claim papers submitted to the court for "declaratory relief" in respect of the non-affected West Brom BTL trackers should cover it. This can be in addition to our claim for damages as regards those BTL trackers that have been affected by the rate hike. Declaratory relief is a judge`s determination (called a "declaratory judgment") of the parties` rights under a contract or a statute, often requested (and highly desired) in a lawsuit over a contract. In theory, an early resolution of legal rights will resolve some or all of the other issues in the same matter.

"CLASS ACTION"

Three people have told me today there is no such thing as a Class Action in the UK, many have said the same thing to me previously including Justin. It is an Americanism and I fully appreciate that Class Actions don't exist in the UK. I chose to stick with it as we all know what it means and Collective Action just doesn't have the same marketing ring to it does it? I am a marketing man when all said and done.

There is actually another much longer legal definition which I'm sure Mark Smith will be delighted to provide us with (please Mark) but I doubt very much anybody will be typing that definition into Google in an attempt to find this forum.

Therefore, if we do speak on the phone, please don't tell me there is no such thing in the UK as I Class Action. I KNOW!!! LOL 🙂
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