West Bromwich Building Society Tracker Margins Legal Action

Reply to the comment left by "James Tallis" at "14/11/2013 - 11:20":

Mr Tallis,
Firstly, and as Dean has amply and eloquently said, there are many reasons why things to to with governments and economics just haven't worked (not ever have if you look at the bigger picture) and my rant was and is as a result of one company's greedy, unethical and avaricious behaviour - that I'm sure you'll agree with. However, illustrating the failings of governments to date, has nothing to do with adverse press against landlords, when singling out one relatively small group of individuals, to lambaste the way they have. As you seem to infer, it's sometimes a case of sour grapes, that's all. I don't take kindly to anyone who behaves this way towards someone else who SEEMS to have done rather better than some they have: Property owners versus non-property owners. I have managed without a university education, even college (only 15% went to these tertiary educational establishments in my day), and certainly no further, adult education later in life. I haven't grumbled about this, or my 'disadvantaged' background, and have always known people people who have been in high places and done rather well for themselves.
The reason I'm saying this is because I'm illustrating the fact that what I've done and managed to achieve with regards to property investment was open and accessible to ANYONE. I've worked overseas, being self employed for almost a decade, teaching English and eventually had my own small school, following a rather traumatic period where I lost my job, when initially employed there before setting up on my own. Also I ran a window-cleaning round for a few years too, which again, anyone could do if they wanted.
Finally I set up a business importing bespoke fabrics to the UK, from South Korea, but this was unsuccessful and I lost a fair bit of money.
While window cleaning and then running an importing business, I was 'investing' in buy-to-lets, with my wife who was also very hard-working and supportive. This in turn led to me getting involved with finance for professional landlords too (directly, not as an employee).
So quite how anyone can have the cheek to think I've had things easy, or be envious just causes me to sigh in disbelieve, and disgust. Like I say I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and had to make my own way in life, so I take exception and a dim view of anyone who trumpets, or thinks, I'm in some way 'lucky'.
So Mr Tallis, you ought not to judge people you know not; and especially if you have little or no experience in running property letting. Just because some people may well be envious, or worse jealous, doesn't in any way justify their position relative to mine. Very few people are so disadvantaged as to render them incapable of doing what I have done, given that I had NO opportunities that anyone else couldn't 'make' for themselves, if they were minded. No, in many cases people who haven't done well, that I know, are reaping what they've sown: expect things to be handed to them on a plate; and anyone who does better than them is somehow lucky and deserves criticism or sneering.
Like Dean, I've had a couple of VERY nasty experiences too: £10,500 worth of damage to one of my properties. It was a multi-let and the agent had put some very unsavoury tenants in it. They never paid a penny in rent, trashed the place (mullered brand new beds, and left them in the garden), smashed windows, and even pushed some doors in, IN their frames! They would open all the windows, and turn the heating up to maximum, until the boiler overheated and broke (of course I as a landlord have to get it back up and running in a reasonable time, despite these cretins not paying me rent either, and fuel bills way higher than they should be because of the way they abused the heating).
Then, I eventually get another agent involved (I would have done something pretty bad to these tenants had I had to meet them face to face) in order to get them out. I end up having to PAY THEM to leave (they knew the system) AND they stole loads of stuff as well, plus left dog excrement all over the kitchen worktops, as a parting gift!
I lost much rent during the refurbishment, only some of which was recoverable on insurance, and there were protracted delays in paying out as it was technically 'criminal damage' so they were trying not to pay out (though eventually they did, thank goodness).
Meanwhile, as I said before, the press hammers we landlords, and hardly EVER do we hear about bad tenants! Oh no, they are somehow protected from so much that we aren't.
We eventually had to sell that property, and at a loss (the risk factor again, which you seem to overlook, or just don't grasp).
We also face future drops in property prices (and don't believe the media hype about things going northwards in this 'recovery'. It's baseless, misguided twaddle). Do you realise that ANY drop in property prices means a loss for the landlord first? The mortgage company had first charge over it, remember? THEY [I have difficulty understanding how on earth you equate the lender having any 'risk'? They have FIRST charge, so a buffer is already built in; and secondly, if they DO go under, then the government [i.e. the taxpayer] bails them out anyway! Did this fact pass you by, Mr Tallis?) have a much more secure position than I, the investor do.
The interest rates to depositors having been slashed really misses the point too:
When interest rates for depositors are higher, it's usually when there is inflation, and borrowing rates are also higher. The NETT effect makes very little difference in fact. Ordinarily you therefore make more when inflation takes hold; but your money's worth less anyway, so what you think you're earning is in fact going in inflated prices anyway.
When interest rates are low, you receive less, but then you aren't having to pay AS high prices a you would have if they'd been higher. Get it? People seem to forget this, much as they keep harping on about how 'expensive' property prices now are compared to annual income. Well, the elephant in the room is that the interest rates are also LOW, lower than they've ever been! So property is more affordable, EXCEPT that now the lenders aren't giving as high Loan to Value, so THIS is where the hurdle to first time buyers is - until the government short-sightedly decided to offer help with the 'help to buy'.
So what your thinking is, with regards to equating landlord reputation with the economy and lack of house building, just lacks understanding for the realities of what's actually happening; and certainly shows who is in truth who is the 'naive'.
I hope you can glean enough to better understand the situation now, and how your comments haven't reflected the rather more complex nature of things than perhaps you realised. From what I've said you can see I'm no spring chicken, and have been around for a fair bit of time, and not just in this country but overseas too. I often despair at how parochial people can be, if not exposed to certain, many and various situations over their lifetime.
A long post, but a necessary one in light of your unwarranted comments.

Reply to the comment left by "Alexander Simpkin" at "14/11/2013 - 22:04":

I suggest you send as much documentation as you have together with payment. You clearly have some documentation, either the quote, KFI or offer letter from Charcols and will no doubt be able to send proof of residence and identity now. Justin will obviously make a judgement call if all he has is a cheque, on that basis you would probably receive the same update as is being sent to people who have made a donation to the marketing fund.

I am not aware whether Charcols brokers operated on an advised or a non-advised basis, your KFI, Terms of Business agreement with them and any invoices you paid to them should all confirm this. I do know Charcols charged arrangement fees but this doesn't answer your question. The largest BTL brokers including Mortgages for Business, The Business Mortgage Company, UKCFG, Professional & Commercial and The Money Centre all arranged mortgages on a fee charging non-advised basis. Solicitors can't operate on a non-advised basis as far as I'm aware so if you employed a solicitor you may well have a negligence claim. I hope that helps.
.

Many thanks for your reply Mark.

I have just made a donation to the marketing fund and will send Justin a cheque once I receive all of my documentation from WB. If I send what I have (Incomplete set of docs) it will probably just add to Justin's people's busy workload in trying to match up two sets of documents to the same person.

I am not sure if I misread your response but are you suggesting that people who have made a donation will get a different update from those people who have sent in the docs along with the £240.

Has anybody actually received an update from Justin yet? I read earlier on in the week that an update was going to hopefully come out on Wednesday (2 days ago) after Justin had received a verbal opinion.

A question for Justin - If I pay by BACS (as per your email) instead of sending a cheque with the Docs, how will you be able to match it to my documents. When making a BACS payment it only leaves a few characters to try and identify what the payment is for and who the payee actually is.

Sorry for all of the questions but I just like to be clear about things.

I also wonder how many of the 6,700 people have re-mortgaged since the WB rate change was communicated. I was about to do this myself until I came across this site. I guess those people who have, will have no way of benefiting from a successful class action.

Alexander

Reply to the comment left by "Alexander Simpkin" at "15/11/2013 - 08:48":

Thanks for the donation.

Client Management Systems make tying payments and papers up very easy these days. Modern law firms keep both an image library of scanned documents as well as paper copies. It creates very little extra work for a lawyer if you send what you have now and the rest later so please do that so Justin can start advising you. The offer letter and proof of ID and residence are the most important documents, everything else is relatively generic.

Yes of course people who make a donation to the marketing fund will receive different updates to the people who have instructed. This is because Justin has no advice for people who have not instructed him and he has no plan of action for them to undertake. What he can do though is provide a generic overview of progress, omitting the detail of course until any Court action is well under way so as not to hand everything on a plate to the enemy just because they chip in a few quid into the marketing pot.

Justin provides weekly updates on this forum and you can read them all by visiting his member profile. From now on, he will also be communicating directly with members. He has categorised them based on how many properties they had when they took the WBBS loan (assuming they've told him of course), whether they sought independent legal advice and those who took the fee free remortgage deal and chose not to take independent legal advice.

I answer most questions for Justin here on the forum as that saves spending the fund on fees for Justin to answer individual questions. Rest assured though, Justin does monitor this thread in his own time and will point anything out to me which he thinks is wrong.
.

I have been reading the site daily and writing emails/letters to Mark and Deans suggestions. I have finally got my paperwork from West Brom.
I will be sending my payment though on line banking and paperwork to Justin today. Hopefully people sitting and watching will get on board now. It's simply not fair to benefit from other people and their contribution - which you probably won't anyway!

Reply to the comment left by "ROSEMARY BOSWORTH" at "14/11/2013 - 20:42":

Hi rosemary, I am a broker and IFA. I am affected by WB as I have 3 mortgages with them. As a broker I knew nothing about the t and c's and how a company could make changes to a product mid stream. As an adviser it is our job to get you the best rate and product for your circumstances. Prior to this year never in history to my knowledge has a company broken their contracts as WB is trying to do. These banks and building society's promote their products to Brokers detailing the rates, type of product etc. Personally and professionally I feel disgusted that WB are trying to implement this rate increase. There is no mention on any Key Facts Illustrations (KFI’s) that they are able to do this. As advisers we have always been told that these documents have to be correct and accurate. Yes your broker will have been paid for the work and advice he gave you, it was a very good product that’s why I have three. I have never been shown any terms and conditions from any lenders, we adhere to the product criteria buts that’s all. If WB are saying your Broker will have seen the T &C’s this is a lie. We are in uncharted territory now and this needs to be stopped! There should be no misunderstanding re the words ‘until term end’. It does not say subject to terms and conditions! I hope this helps and I am glad you are on board. This is unethical and a disgrace. All the best.

Thank you for your reply Mark and for your personal time and effort you are putting into this.

Alexander

Reply to the comment left by "David Vickers" at "15/11/2013 - 09:59":

It was the first question I asked of WBBS was the advisor aware the clause and I was told yes. Therefore my initial complaint was with them. WBBS will now have to prove that our Finanacial Advisor received this information to back up their claim.

I think they may have been trying to pass the buck!

Reply to the comment left by "David Vickers" at "15/11/2013 - 09:59":

Well said David

I totally agree with you and I am not a broker nor have I ever been one. At no point have I even considered this to be my brokers fault or that of my Solicitor. I have spoken with the broker and he promised to pass 118 onto anyone else affected. My solicitor , however, ignored me. So . they wont get anymore business from us and I will have no problem looking for compensation from them if I need to. Had they been more helpful that would not have been the case.

Hopefully you as a broker maybe able to help the case should evidence be required to prove WB didn't send out the T & Cs as they said they did, although to be fair I maintain that this clause does not relate to the product we all bought into anyway.

Dean

Reply to the comment left by "ROSEMARY BOSWORTH" at "15/11/2013 - 10:11":

That’s very interesting, Obviously passing the book. Imagine if I had to read every company’s T&C's and interpret them, all the legal jargon and ambiguities. Glad this site is here to help.