Test case for landlords under EU Human rights act possible?

Reply to the comment left by "Andrew Holmes" at "08/07/2015 - 18:31":

Hi Andrew

The major stumbling block in terms of mounting a legal challenge against councils and/or other advisers, is proving the case. We all (except Julie) know that this happens, BUT we know it happens because our tenants tell us that this is the advice they are given, and unfortunately us landlords saying it is just "hearsay" evidence from unreliable witnesses (who may have misunderstood the advice being given), - that is how a court would probably see it. Even if our tenant was willing to stand up in court and confirm that this is what was said, it would still be their word against that of a public official. Also, what tenant that you are evicting, is going to help you by bringing a legal case against a council (whom they hope will house them, eventually)? - It just isn't going to happen! ............
but, just for fun, let's say it did happen and your evicted tenant was willing to go to court and give evidence in your "test case", who is bringing the case? you the landlord, or the ill-advised tenant? Who is the victim of the bad advice, is it the tenant who has been evicted and now has a bigger debt, or you the landlord who has to recover the debt from the evicted tenant? In relaity it is bothm but in legal terms it may be the tenant and your recourse to the law is only against the tenant, not against the Council/CAB etc as it was not you they gave advice to. Also, if the Council/CAB/Shelter adviser, with the backing of his full LA/organisation's legal team, and barristers paid for by his professional indemnity insurance, say that they were simply stating the tenant's legal rights, and the tenant must have wrongly interpreted that information. There is no way a court is going to rule otherwise, unless there is hard evidence to the contrary, e.g. a letter from the Council/CAB/Shelter clearly giving this bad advice.

In terms of the caselaw I've mentioned which establishes the council's legal duty to accept that a person is "homeless" as son as a property becomes unaffordable (assuming all benefits are claimed and tenant budgets appropriately), again you are faced with the fact that it is extremely rare that a tenant (even a homeless one) would mount a legal challenge against the council. Occasionally they appeal against the council's decisions, but if that fails they never bother to pursue the case to the higher courts because it's "too much hassle". The councils know this, so will resist and make it as difficult as possible for as long as possible, then if it does eventually get as far as the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court, then they will probably do an out of court settlement so that there is no judgement that can be used against them in the future.

In terms of the hundreds of thousands of pounds of Housing Benefit that goes in tenants pockets instead of being used to pay the rent, it always comes back to "it is the tenant's HB claim so it is their responsibility to use it to pay the rent", i.e. it is NOT the councils' responsibility to make sure it is used for paying the rent and for nothing else. Thus, the councils are immune from liability for what the tenant chooses to do with the Housing Benefit. - While I strongly disagree with this, it does seem to be the situation.

Also, in terms of Housing Benefit, the government would say that there are already safeguards in place to ensure that HB is paid direct to the landlord where necessary, e.g. when it is a condition of being granted the accommodation, when the tenant is particularly vulnerable (and this is stated to the council), and when the tenant falls 2 months behind with their rent.

Yes, there is a simple solution, but the government won't introduce it. That is to make the tenant pay the rent arrears by deducting it at source from the former tenant's other welfare benefits (JSA/ESA/DLA/PIP etc). Although it would take a long time to recover the rent arrears, at least it would be paid and the tenants would realise that they cannot get away with not paying the contractual rent (they will be paying it back one way or another). This is already done for Social Fund loans, so it would be very easy for the government to do this for former tenant rent arrears (it is one tiny amendment to one piece of legislation that already exists).

Reply to the comment left by "Robert Mellors" at "08/07/2015 - 19:20":

Hi Robert, I am aware of the case law in question. This is from experience and I wish I had recorded it at the time, was sitting with a council employee and my tenant and in front of me it was made it clear by the council employee she would be telling the tenant to 'wait till the court issues the order to get you out and then just wait till the last minute, it is up to you to pay but I wouldn't'. I reported this to her manager but nothing was done, they know it is so costly to take to court. This tactic and advice has got to stop.

Hi all, it is almost worth having a none paying tenant just to hear someone advising a tenant to take this course of action so a case could be raised against them. I for one will be recording any conversations with third parties who ill advice any of my tenants and looking at engaging a legal representative to press the case, perhaps one for you Peter ?

It is a sad state of affairs when a large public funded organisation who are responsible for rental properties, stab in the back private landlords and put scrupulous tenants before them. In my book they deserve to be dragged over the coals, as previously said, and with today's budget, I can see this issue raising its head more frequently in the future.

Andrew

Reply to the comment left by "Peter Fisher - Boddington Law - (Fixed Fee Law)" at "08/07/2015 - 19:44":

"This has got to stop", yes, I agree it should stop, but councils don't have enough properties to house everyone that needs housing so there is a massive pressure on them to stop accepting homelessness applications. While individual housing officers may be the ones delivering the message "stay put until bailiffs arrive", it is their managers and Corporate Directors of Housing, that exert the pressure (and ethos) that makes the individual housing officers give that advice. Of course, the senior management are also under pressure from central government to cut the number of households accepted as homeless (yes, there are targets to meet), and of course it is central government policies that determine the number of council houses available (e.g. Right to Buy, and restrictions on building council homes). The whole system is a shambles, it has been for years, and it gets worse each year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that individual housing officers are justified in giving that advice, they are not, but when you understand the culture and pressures behind their actions then it is more understandable (though still not justified). Very few council staff (or advisers) have the balls to stand up to their managers because they know their own job would be on the line, so they go along with what they are told to do/say, while at the same time feeling bad that they have to do/say such things and they wish they could do more to help the homeless applicant. - Though none of them seem to have any sympathy for the landlords (I guess council staff and advisers read the bad press about landlords and believe it, same as the rest of the population seem to do).

Reply to the comment left by "Andrew Holmes" at "08/07/2015 - 20:25":

Hi Andrew

I can send you one of my non-paying tenants if you wish!!! lol

I took my district council to the toothless Local Government Ombudsman over these issues. The council was very devious and denied everything and changed their story several times. Incredibly the LGO allowed the council to change their statements each time. I had some help from the NLA who also had some interest in a test case. In the end the LGO believed that the advice to stay put had been given to me tenant. The tenant emailed stating that the man from the council said stay put etc and the LGO believed my tenant instead of the council. My district council appealed and changed their story and said yes this man at the council did say this but he was a homelessness advisor working in their offices but was not contracted by them. He was contracted by the County Council. So my case against the District Council was invalid. Apparently I should have made it against the County Council. I gave up after this.

We used this Government Guidance for local councils https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/7841/152056.pdf specifically 8.32.b The Secretary of State considers that where a
person applies for accommodation or assistance in obtaining accommodation,
and:
(a) the person is an assured shorthold tenant who has received proper notice in
accordance with s.21 of the Housing Act 1988;
(b) the housing authority is satisfied that the landlord intends to seek possession;
and
(c) there would be no defence to an application for a possession order;
then it is unlikely to be reasonable for the applicant to continue to occupy the
accommodation beyond the date given in the s.21 notice

i.e tenants are entitled to council help from the moment that the Landlord states that he intends to proceed with the S21 notice. It is unreasonable / vexatious to take this any further.

We also said they were illegally interfering in a legal contract between me and my tenant and committing a tort.

Hope this helps someone. good luck.

Reply to the comment left by "Roanch 21" at "08/07/2015 - 21:47":

Thank you Roanch, this is potentially very useful.

Reply to the comment left by "Robert Mellors" at "08/07/2015 - 21:33":

Hi Robert,

That is a very kind offer, I am sure i will find some of my own shortly !!!

Reply to the comment left by " " at "07/07/2015 - 08:15":

Good to hear that you also advise landlords.

Round here CAB does not want to talk to landlords, as I found out when I wanted to find out about my duties and responsibilities toward a disabled tenant that was going to move in.

Reply to the comment left by "Neil Patterson" at "06/07/2015 - 10:55":

Dartford council are the same guide them all the way through the system lying and cheating if some one would like to pick up the banner count me in quite happy to help with funding