Selective licensing schemes pose ‘double jeopardy’ risks for landlords, warns legal expert

A breach of conditions in reality will only really come about if prompted by other things first. If the the council see the chance of bigger £££'s on the horizon then yes they might look to take it further.

If someone is behaving anti socially 'outside the property' as in the OP example then first they have to investigate and determine WHO this is never mind where they actually live. How are they going to do that? Then what?

First focus should be LL's with no licence. Easy breach and big fine. No brainer and can be done from any council twonk working from home still with access to google maps and the council tax list/title deeds of the property.

Next comes LL's who have paid but where a complaint comes form a tenant and they need to be seen to investigate (good for SL stats to show that SL is 'working'). Expect them to go to town on every visit they make in this was - again need to qualify their existence and that SL is 'necessary'.)

Then LL's where an inspection may be requested (not from a complaint). First though they have to get permission from tenant to let them in!

Then a requested inspection within the 5 years - again if tenant lets them in.

Any action by a tenant outside the property is going to be very difficult if not impossible to show who the LL could eve be 'responsible' for this - licence or no licence.

REMEMBER THE PROPERTY IS subject to being LICENCED NOT THE LANDLORD!

Surely if a tenant is acting anti socially outside of the property then this is a matter for the Police ?

Reply to the comment left by Dylan Morris at 06/02/2024 - 15:25
How about inside your property post Section 21 - I see no information at all on details just wooly unworkable platitudes.

“This may seem unbelievable and there are cases currently being defended where tenants have confessed to damaging the property and not permitting access, yet the landlord and agent are being enforced against under licence conditions.

Can the OP give more detail on what property damage and what the issue is with lack of access exactly in relation to what the actual licence condition says itself so we can all see what you mean?

If the tenant has damaged the property did not allow access to the property then that's a breach of contract (civil matter) between LL & T.

Strange how it might seem, there is no statutory obligation for the LL to even evict T if there is a breach of contract. No licence overrides this.

If T is misbehaving outside the property its a Police issue nothing to do with the LL whatsoever. So how does licencing come into this?

need clarity as this article makes no sense otherwise

Hi all. Can we draw up some sort of template to challenge the council on the ASB issue between us? I have today received my demand for the second payment for my licence. I am not paying it until I am sure that I do not leave myself wide open to multiple fines from possibly multiple agencies. No doubt the RRB and the proposed property portal will also have their own conditions and fines . I have absolutely no legal powers to stop my tenants antics only eviction. But that's looking more difficult by the day.
It seems that accepting the licence in standard for transfers all responsiblity of ASB from the police and councils (Who DO have the powers and laws) to the landlord.

Reply to the comment left by Paul at 06/02/2024 - 16:38
and therein is the issue. The LL has no powers - and no SL claim otherwise.

Most TA's already have clauses regarding the behaviour of the tenants etc and yes the only recourse for the LL is seeking possession via S8 but the grounds as they stand now are specific and require evidence for ASBO AND are also discretionary.

There is nothing in a SL that insists you must seek possession for any claim of ASBO (inside or outside the property)

The trick I think is to write back to the council and ask exactly what action they expect you to take to fulfil every condition they have written into the licence. Until they give firm clarity on what they want you do to, then it is impossible for them to accuse you of a breach of anything.

If they are going to set the rules then they need to be clear with them and what is expected. How on earth are you able to fully comply with anything otherwise?

Int he case of a SL

If the Council are looking to fine the landlord for tenant’s anti social behaviour then they must have some evidence. Presumably such an amount of evidence that the landlord could use for a Section 8 ? If it’s sufficient to impose a fine then it must surely be sufficient to evict the tenant. Ask the Council for all their evidence. And then use it at Court. If the Court say it’s not enough to grant a possession order then logic would suggest the Council can’t use it to fine the landlord.

This is a typical of what the council expects of landlords https://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/media/dpwjgkvl/antisocial-behaviour-guide-for-landlords-v9-june-2023-1.pdf

Reply to the comment left by Dylan Morris at 06/02/2024 - 17:33
Unfortunately Councils cannot share their copies of any witness statements they have with the landlord. In fact, they can't even share the identities of people who have complained about your tenants, but they expect the landlord to conduct their own investigation and take 'appropriate' action against their tenants. They will probably tell you no more than the fact that there is antisocial behaviour at the address, and demand that you remedy the problem without giving you any assistance or clues whatsoever.
Such a system is completely unrealistic and unworkable. If a tenant has people coming and going at all times of the day (you suspect that they are drug dealing but have no proof), or are screaming and shouting at 3am, but the neighbours complain to the council but won't get involved, then the landlord is pretty much stuck unless we have recourse to Section 21.
It's the same when your tenant has 4 dogs or 7 cats that they don't walk, but let them into the neighbours garden or the street to foul. What Court is going to evict a tenant who simply tells the judge that it isn't their dogs poop? Tenants who don't put their bins out, or take them back in after the lorry has been. Nottingham City Council Selective Licence team think that this is the responsibility of the landlord. We don't have the right to enter the tenants back garden every week to check that rubbish is being disposed of, but the Council will fine us if such a build up occurs. At the moment we can avoid penalties by showing due reverence to the idiots that run the scheme, doff your cap, apologise profusely and promise to check weekly, hoping that the tenant doesn't complain for having their 'peaceful enjoyment' breached. Once Section 21 disappears, some unfortunate landlords will really fall by the wayside until the problem is acknowledged in about 20 years time and the law is changed again !