Resolving prepayment meter dispute?

Reply to the comment left by david.... (not Goliath) at 10/11/2023 - 10:59
I am afraid that I cannot see a valid cause of action in anything you have said.

Reply to the comment left by Freda Blogs at 10/11/2023 - 11:21
Thanks Freda, if I was dealing with a responsible organisation then yes, that could bring about a good outcome. In this case the utility company know what they are doing and certainly the CEO will have weighed up the risks and decided on whether they need to change their policy. There is little hope of change while the Ombudsman case handlers steer clear of challenging the utility companies who, as I have been told by others, pay for the Ombudsman service. (I have no information on whether this is true). If my previous Letter Before Action had reached the desk of a responsible CEO, the matter would have been settled by now. But if/when this utility company's name is splashed over the internet for having to pay out £10k for not replacing a prepayment meter, then maybe the CEO will wish someone had made them aware of it earlier.

Reply to the comment left by david.... (not Goliath) at 10/11/2023 - 12:22The fundamental question that you have not yet answered is what you believe imposes a duty on them to provide you with a credit meter.

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 10/11/2023 - 11:22You surprise me. Taking into account the interest you have shown in this thread, you don't seem the type of landlord to just give in without at least a little bit of 'Seething'. Now I am curious what you would do if a utility company stopped you renting out one of your properties and 'asked' (not demanded) a payment of £2,500 to clear the previous tenants debts. Would you just pay it straight away without question? What steps would you take to try get an explanation of why you are being held responsible and why you had not been contacted for the previous 5-1/2 years? How long before you gave in to their coercion? No answers required but thanks for your interest and in allowing me to keep the thread alive. Hopefully the information you and I have shared has pre-armed a few other landlords on Property118, who may find themselves in a similar situation.

Reply to the comment left by david.... (not Goliath) at 10/11/2023 - 13:11
Do you not accept the concept of a deemed contract by the utility provider? Do you believe that if the property is occupied by someone other than you, that the utility company can't legally enforce a debt against you?

Reply to the comment left by david.... (not Goliath) at 10/11/2023 - 13:11There is no harm in doing a bit of seething but if you cannot establish a cause of action you have no legal remedy.
The way you are going it could cost you a lot of money to discover that reality.

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 10/11/2023 - 12:52You are still hanging in there, good. You ask "what I believe imposes a duty on the utility company to provide me with a credit meter". I would rely the answer to the same question I put to OFGEM. In OFGEM's reply they state - "The supplier is obligated to ensure their customers have the appropriate metering arrangements in place". I would argue :-
(1) it is not appropriate to have a pre-payment meter in the bedroom of a HMO that has been renovated for the young professional market, (even if it is a smart meter with provision for remote 'topping-up'). Letting Agents agree with this and say it will lower the attraction this property to my target market.
(2) The function of fitting the prepayment meter in order to force their previous customers to pay for what they use, has now been fulfilled, and therefore the prepayment meter should be WIPED and removed,
(3) As I will be their new registered customer and will be paying the bills, then a credit smart meter would be the appropriate metering arrangement.
(4) OFGEM also state - "Suppliers can not force-fit a pre-payment meter under warrant for people if they don’t won’t one or charge them for warrant costs on debts".
(5) OFGEM do not recommend the installation of prepayment meters in shared properties, even when there is a history of poor payments from existing credit meters.
(6) And there is one small point I have not yet mentioned. That is, the utility company have stated that once the prepayment meter is topped up 3 times, it will automatically load on the £2500 and extract it at the rate of £7:00/week for the next 7 years until the debt has been repaid. Nice eh?

Reply to the comment left by david.... (not Goliath) at 10/11/2023 - 14:03
In OFGEM's reply they state - "The supplier is obligated to ensure their customers have the appropriate metering arrangements in place".

If you have not already done so I suggest that you ask ofgem what gives rise to this obligation and who is responsible for enforcing it.

Reply to the comment left by David at 10/11/2023 - 13:18You ask me (1) "Do you not accept the concept of a deemed contract by the utility provider? And, (2) Do you believe that if the property is occupied by someone other than you, that the utility company can't legally enforce a debt against you?
For (1) it depend what you regard what is 'the concept of a deemed contract'. This is an electricity account. For clarity let me quote the relevant section of the 1989 Electricity act and see if we can agree. Schedule 6, clause 3(i) states - "Where an electricity supplier supplies electricity to any premises otherwise than in pursuance of a contract, the supplier shall be deemed to have contracted with the occupier (or the owner if the premises are unoccupied) for the supply of electricity as from the time (“the relevant time”) when he began so to supply electricity."
I believe in that legal definition, but accept all legal definitions are open to interpretation. If your 'concept' is the same as this definition then we are on the same page.
For (2) As the owner/landlord, I would say yes, the liability always rests with the occupier [tenant(s)] using the supply and not with the landlord unless the property is empty. (But, I am told that without any case law, there is currently no legal definition of 'Occupier'). The difficulty starts when it suits a utility company to 'try one on' by making the landlord responsible by just behaving as if the property is empty, when in fact they know the property is occupied and the real reason that they try and create a spoof deemed contract in the landlords name is that they are having problems identifying the tenants who are in the property using the supply, and there is usually a debt. Landlords who are directly involved by the utility company in this process usually provide the tenant details. In my case the utility company did not involve me for 5-1/2 years. What is your take on this, what would you say is the answer to (2).

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 10/11/2023 - 14:36
You sensibly say, "If you have not already done so I suggest that you ask ofgem what gives rise to this obligation and who is responsible for enforcing it."
I say thank you for your suggestion. Been there done that. This is what OFGEM say.

"Ofgem is the independent National Regulatory Authority for the Gas and Electricity Markets. We do not have a direct role in investigating or resolving individual consumer complaints and therefore we are unable to provide specific advice in response to your query."