Does the punishment fit the crime?

Does the punishment fit the crime?

8:42 AM, 7th November 2018, About 6 years ago 52

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This morning I read about a landlord who failed to make improvements demanded by the local Council through notice under the Housing Act 2004. Apparently, the property required repairs to rectify a number of health and safety issues, including dangerous electrics and damp. There were no more details available than that in the article I read.

However, the Council issued a fixed penalty notice for £1,000 in regards to the smoke alarm and on top of that the landlord was fined £20,000.

I see that Property118 posted a comment below the article to say “we agree that non-compliance shouldn’t be tolerated, but we also believe in justice and a £20,000 fine just doesn’t make sense for a crime of this nature. Compare that to a fine for speeding for example, both of which have similar risks to human life.”

I also note that several “criminal landlord convictions” have subsequently been overturned on appeal.

Are landlords being singled out and treated unfairly by Council’s and the Judiciary?

Should landlords be compensated for stress and damage to their reputations after having their names dragged through the mud if/when they win their appeals, and should that compensation be commensurate to the fined imposed?

Do you think the punishments being handed out fit the crimes?

What are your thoughts?


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Comments

Robert M

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23:57 PM, 10th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Hi Marie
If you were the person in control of the property at the time of the inspection, then you will be held responsible for any breaches of the HMO Regs and HHSRS. In order for there to be a breach of the HMO Regs you would have to have had 3 or more residents living in the property at the time of the inspection. As you were presumably in the process of handing the property back with vacant possession, was there 3 or more residents actually living there on the actual date of inspection? (if not, then it was not a HMO at the time of the inspection, and you have a defence).
Regardless of whether you comply with the Council's instructions or not, in relation to remedying the alleged defects, the Council can still issue you with a civil penalty or prosecute you if there was an offence in existence at the date of the inspection. This means that you could do everything asked of you, and do it all within the specified timescale, then several months later the Council could still decide to prosecute you in the magistrates court or issue you with a civil penalty. Thus, the fact that you handed the property back to the owner 3 days later does not prevent the Council from fining you for the offence/breach.
Many of the HMO Regs are open to the personal interpretation of the inspecting officer, e.g. the requirement to keep the communal areas in good condition, well what is the legal definition of "good condition"?????
You keep saying that you did not commit any offence, but if you only had fire alarms upstair then that was an offence, and if you did not have fire doors then that was probably an offence. The HMO Regs are so open to interpretation that absolutely any HMO landlord anywhere at any time could be found to be in breach to some degree, even if the alleged breach has been caused by a resident (as opposed to poor management or maintenance of the property).
I know that Cyril Thomas was the victim of an over zealous council officer, and successfully overturned his conviction, so it may be a good idea to see if you can use the same barrister as he had?

MARIE ELLIS

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9:04 AM, 11th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Robert Mellors at 10/11/2018 - 23:57
Hi. This was a non licensable hmo so the 'regs' are guidelines not law (LACORS). I had smoke alarms ground and first floor. Fire doors not compulsory its subject to risk assessment its a VERY grey area. Even the regs say it is! Their letter under HHSRS said do the improvements and they wouldnt fine but still did. They did a really poor inspection and wont provide the report. They didnt check what was or wasnt upstairs. They took everything ONE tenant said as gospel. They missed alarms. I have NOT committed any offence

Luke P

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9:43 AM, 11th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Reply to the comment left by MARIE ELLIS at 11/11/2018 - 09:04
Look up and give Paul Fitzgerald -EHO, HHSRS expert and legislation co-author- a call. Get him to re-inspect if you can. I’ve had Council bods not qualified or with the first clue *how* to conduct a proper HHSRS (I do…I’ve done the course…with Paul). They often expect LLs to take them at their word, at face-value but I know how to do the calculations and what they mean. The Council don’t. When challenged for data and workings out as well as qualifications they clammed up. Now they do not inspect me at all, because they know they’re wrong.

MARIE ELLIS

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10:11 AM, 11th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Reply to the comment left by Luke P at 11/11/2018 - 09:43
If they did do one as they said shouldnt i be given a copy? And i cant get access now it was handed back 30th june and there is a family in it now. Yes i will try him thank you!!

Luke P

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10:32 AM, 11th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Reply to the comment left by MARIE ELLIS at 11/11/2018 - 10:11
You only stand a chance of getting one if you ask. You can only dispute the reports findings of you know what and how they assessed each element. Refusal or inability to produce this by the LA will likely collapse the FTT.

MARIE ELLIS

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12:09 PM, 11th November 2018, About 6 years ago

I engaged an EHO consultant who asked and they totally ignored her then changed the 'charge' to Management refs which werent breached. They were only in the house 6 mins according to my tenant so how could they do one in that time? I just dont think they have one

Luke P

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14:35 PM, 11th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Reply to the comment left by MARIE ELLIS at 11/11/2018 - 12:09
Lucky for you, Paul Fitzgerald also teaches Fire as well as Management Regs.

MARIE ELLIS

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7:56 AM, 24th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Morning all. My legal representations have been in a week now and not heard anything...yet. wish me luck! If this goes to FTT I will be hoping for an army of you guys outside the court waving placards!! 😁. I think they wont want it going to tribunal as there are so many holes in their argument and if they lose against me they will lose against a lot more people and i WILL start something in my area to help other landlords who have been wrongly fined by incompetent staff

MARIE ELLIS

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14:16 PM, 27th November 2018, About 6 years ago

UPDATE UPDATE my Intent to Fine has been withdrawn! I will explain more when I have the withdrawal notice in my hand (I have received an email from them to confirm its on its way). What a relief. If anyone ever gets done over by their council in this way I've learned so much and had so much help from so many kind people that I really would like to pass my experience on. Watch this space!!

Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118

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14:27 PM, 27th November 2018, About 6 years ago

Reply to the comment left by MARIE ELLIS at 27/11/2018 - 14:16
Thanks for the update and congratulations! I look forward to reading more.

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