Please help with confusion over Building Regs and HMOs

Reply to the comment left by John Simpson at 24/10/2018 - 11:28
Not correct, the legislative changes concerning HMOs which took effect on October 1st concern mandatory licencing. The definitions of a HMOs given in the Housing Act 2004 remain the same. The query here concerns S.257 HMOs, it's probably easier to refer directly to the legislation in this instance, so here it is:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/257

Reply to the comment left by Derek t at 24/10/2018 - 10:10
Thank you derek.

Reply to the comment left by James Barnes at 24/10/2018 - 10:14
Hi James. Because my mortgage is a commercial mortgage and not an HMO one and also because of cost of licences etc

I’m confused, because if thousands of landlords (including every high street shops with residential above) don’t comply with Regs and have poorly converted flats etc, how will they all get away with it cos they’re essentially breaking the law aren’t they? It makes me cross because I’m trying to be transparent and upfront but thousands won’t even bother! They have been very well converted already - full panel alarms, EPC, 30 min fire doors, fire extinguishers, blankets etc but all this stuff about floors up, lobbies required etc seems so overboard.

Reply to the comment left by John Simpson at 24/10/2018 - 11:28
Hi James. Because my mortgage is a commercial mortgage and not an HMO one and also because of cost of licences etc

I’m confused, because if thousands of landlords (including every high street shops with residential above) don’t comply with Regs and have poorly converted flats etc, how will they all get away with it cos they’re essentially breaking the law aren’t they? It makes me cross because I’m trying to be transparent and upfront but thousands won’t even bother! They have been very well converted already - full panel alarms, EPC, 30 min fire doors, fire extinguishers, blankets etc but all this stuff about floors up, lobbies required etc seems so overboard.

Reply to the comment left by Sjp at 24/10/2018 - 22:04
Hi john. Unfortunately that’s not the case. There is a clause in the Regs that stipulate buildings with self contained flats are classed as HMOS unless they comply with the 1991 Building Regulations

Reply to the comment left by Seething Landlord at 24/10/2018 - 11:40
Hi Seeting Landlord. Thank you for asking the question. I’ve got the 1991 Regs but I see nothing about lobbies - is that compartmentalisation? That’s what I employed these 2 surveyors to do - tell me what doesn’t comply and they both say different things!

Reply to the comment left by Sjp at 24/10/2018 - 22:10
As far as I understand it, compartmentalisation refers to ensuring that a fire is contained within the "compartment" where it started for at least the specified fire resistance period. I have no experience in this field but since the LA are the enforcing authority would think it best to get them to advise you. That should provide the definitive answer.

It's 60 mins fire protection between tenancies. Envirograf produce a paint that can increase resistance in a single plasterboard layer from 30 mins to 60 avoiding the need for an extra layer of plasterboard.

I’ve looked into this extensively a few years ago.
I know some councils try to argue that you must have building control approval from 1991 or later and you cannot just prove the standards have been met. The problem is it is impossible to get a regularisation certificate for anything except the current regulations, which have far more stringent sound transmission standards for example.
If Hackney are agreeing that the building will not be classed as a s257 HMO if you can prove it meets the 1991 standard, then I think you have successfully cleared a major hurdle. Check what form of proof they would accept. Would the private building control firms you have consulted give you a report after the works are completed confirming the standard are met, and would Hackney accept that? I don’t understand how they could issue a completion certificate for regulations that are out of date unless I’m missing something?
I would just add that I believe that any councils stating that just meeting the 1991 standard is not enough, and you need a completed building control certificate, are wrong. For example Camden state the date of conversion and building completion certs are all they will go on: https://camden.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/stream/asset/s257%20HA%202004%20information.pdf?asset_id=3385972
(Last two paragraphs - although perhaps some room for interpretation as it says ‘where there is any doubt’ and maybe a report from an approved inspector will mean there is no doubt?)
However, I also believe they are wrong in their interpretation of the Housing Act to state this.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1904/pdfs/uksiem_20071904_en.pdf
In the explanatory notes to SI 2007 no.1904, and SI 2006 No.371 it states section 257 HMO's have had "building work undertaken in connection with the
conversion (that) did not comply with appropriate building standards and STILL does not comply with
them"
And from the 2004 HA 257 2a (ii) has the same definition, and in 3a (ii) "building standards EQUIVALENT to those imposed, in relation to a building or part of a building to which those Regulations applied, by those Regulations as they had effect on 1st June 1992."
My understanding is that nowhere does it state that a completion certificate is needed to 'meet the standards' of the 1991 building regs. Of course a certificate would make that clear and simple, but there are cases made for 'post conversion' remedial works to bring it up to standard which is what I believe you are trying to do.
Good luck, and I would be very interested to know what Hackney accept as proof that the works have been completed.

I sent this to my boss.... please
See response

It is heartbreaking to hear. Tell her i am happy to talk to her no charge. Explain to her I have over 160 HMOs and 1000 tenants and do training so I have a lot if experience
regards,
Jim Haliburton