Changes to Section 21 notices from October

Reply to the comment left by Chris Daniel at 30/09/2018 - 17:45
I have written to MHCLG expressing disappointment that the recent H & P Act House of Commons briefing paper did not include any update on its implentation
( quite regardless of its watered-down amendments by mainly labour M.P.'s who opposed it lock stock and barrel - would you believe ! )

So from now on, anyone wishing to serve a section 21 notice would need to ensure that all the relevant information required under the new deregulation rules need to be fulfilled even for those predating tenancies, particularly when using accelerated possession order, perhaps not for standard possession order under S21.
Does anyone think or know that it ought to have been given before the new rule started on 1st October 2018, what of those who still have not complied with, and yet to provide the necessary paperwork to their tenants, can their case now be thrown out?
I was recently looking at court forms for accelerated possessions under section 21, it asks for dates when the relevant paperwork was given to tenants, so clearly this indicates that dates these were given can make a big difference to an outcome of success of accelerated possession order. let us see what are your views on this.

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 04/10/2018 - 15:46
Its correct that following the service of a Section 21, its only the Accelerated process forms ( n5b ) that ask the specific questions about the Tenancy Prescribed Information ( EPC, gs cert & H2R ) whilst the 'non-accelerated' form ( N5 and N119 ) don't.
The difference is that a judge can award Accelerated Possession WITHOUT a hearing, whereas a hearing is always necessary following a 'Non-Accelerated' claim. ( So don't be thinking a judge isn't going to ask those questions about the P.I at the hearing 😉

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 04/10/2018 - 15:46
It SHOULD make no difference for pre-October 2015 tenancies if the prescribed documents have been served or not.

BUT it will depend on whether or not the judge understands the law, hence the recommendation to serve PI before S21.

Note, however, that it will not be possible to correct a failing to serve the GSC before the tenant occupied the property.

Reply to the comment left by Michael Barnes at 06/10/2018 - 23:53Micheal, if suppose a landlord took a tenant on in 2010, it would be 8 years since the tenancy first started, it may be rolled into a periodic tenancy, what if the landlord want to serve S21 and cannot produce evidence of a GSC from 2012, since no one keeps old GSC lying about so how would a landlord be able to use S21 in this scenario? most people don't keep records for more than a few years, and does having a GSC makes any installation any more safer than it is ? what if the things went wrong in the heating appliance a few days or months after it was checked? How many people lose lives in Britain from carbon monoxide or gas explosions? compare this to numbers killed on roads and numbers killed by negligence of medical staff at hospitals, such as giving incorrect dosage, wrongly diagnosing a medical condition, and why is the lives of tenants more important than those of home owners and their families? why do home owners not have to obtain a GSC if it was for a matter of life and death or safety as being the prime concern, which should be for everyone not just tenants. The housing law is obviously biased and heavily against landlords, why can't GSC be also the responsibility of tenants?

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 07/10/2018 - 00:43After the 1st of Oct 2018, - re Tenancies that originated Before 1/10/15 you will have to serve the EPC, Gas & H2R Before you can serve a Sec 21 ( Not the gas cert before the tenancy began ( as is the case for AST's from 1/10/15 )

Chris, I said you may have to produce a gas safety record at the time the tenancy began in 2010 for instance, so if your tenants moved in in 2010, and they are still living at the same place under a periodic tenancy, do you have to serve them the current GSC as well as a copy of GSC when they moved in 2010.
I am aware all current GSC need to be given to all tenants from 1st October 2018, irrespectively when they first too tenancy.

The point i am making is what if the tenants claim that when they first took over the tenancy, their landlord did not provide them with a GSC, and the only way to prove would be to produce your (landlord's) copy, but you may not have kept it after a few years most people destroy old paperwork.

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 07/10/2018 - 19:48
Its not retrospective to when the tenancy began.
There is conflicting / uncertain views on what a court will decide in a Possession claim case ( see much lengthy - very, discussion on Nearly legal, but I'm advising my clients to serve the EPC and Gas ( as well as the current H2R - which there is clear agreement isn't required pre-2015 ) shortly before the service of a Section 21.

Reply to the comment left by Mike at 07/10/2018 - 00:43
That's a lot of questions.
- Having a GSC does not make the installation safer, but it does indicate that the installation was up to standard at the time of the inspection.
- Who keeps old GSCs? any competent landlord.
- many more people die from medical negligence and road accidents than from gas: Are you suggesting that a few extra deaths from faulty gas installations are acceptable?
- Why do homeowners not have to have a GSC? Individuals are entitled to indulge in risky behaviour for themselves and, to a limited extent, for their family. However, those providing goods and services to others are not entitled to put those others at risk by providing dangerous (if used in a lawful way) goods and services.
- Not produce GSC from 2012? As I pointed out earlier, it is not a requirement to have served GSC for a pre-October 2015 tenancy in order to serve a valid S21 notice, it is just that some judges may not realise this.

No Micheal, I was not suggesting that any deaths from faulty gas appliances are acceptable, but the emphasis placed on Gas safety far outweighs that placed on many other deaths caused through other health and safety issues, like there are more injuries and deaths at building sites, traffic accidents, cyclist getting moved down by HGVs through lack of cycle lanes, no one seems to take the responsibility seriously apart from penalising helpless lorry drivers whose vision is restricted and irresponsible cyclist wedging themselves between small gaps and huge lorries just to be ahead at a junction, All cyclist should be responsible for their own safety, would any sensible person stand next to a big lorry, why not pull behind it when traffic is stopping at red lights.

All accidental deaths should be preventable including responsibility imposed on home owners as their neighbours properties could be damaged and other people get killed and parents should also be made responsible for their children's well fare and safety of their lives, a home owner not taking care of his gas appliance is equally danger to his neighbours and to some extent his own family.
.
But Micheal do you even know how a gas safety checks are made? the engineers are in and out in 15 minutes, they only check the flue gasses with their gas analyser, if all readings are within specified parameters, they pass the boiler, give it a quick visual inspection from the outside, check the condition of the flue, but rarely open the boiler covers to visually inspect inside, they say that is part of a service and takes longer and needs to be done separately, and say most boilers don't need servicing every year, they also check for gas tightness any small leakage) but do not and most times cannot inspect pipes where they are hidden under false floors and buried in concrete, where a potential problem can occur.
This does not surprise me as many only charge £35.00 to issue a GSC.

I remember how i fell out with a lettings agent, when I was reminded by a lettings agent acting for me, that a gas safety inspection is due and a GSC needs to be obtained a month before it was due, so i arranged a gas safe engineer to attend, I would also need to be there as the tenant was behaving awkward, I had given the tenant a weeks notice that we would be calling to do the safety checks , fortunately I got there first, the tenant tells me then that the heating has melted!
why the hell did she not tell me before?
So i asked her can I come in and have a quick look what is melted, she allowed me in, i took one look at the warm air heating unit, its front plastic cover had melted and deformed, I asked her when did that happen, she replied about two months ago, so i asked her why the heck did she not report this and her reply was because she was behind on rent and did not want to cause me any more trouble as she owed me a fair amount of rent!

I obviously phoned the Gas safe engineer to abandon his visit as he was stuck in a long que due to a traffic incident, and he himself asked me if he can come another time, i said OK not a problem and i briefly explained to him that there was no way the heating appliance could be serviced and issued with a GSC, because it had suffered a major failure, he advised me to turn off the gas at the meter if she agrees as long as she is not using gas cooker or hot water from the boiler, fortunately the house had an immersion heater for hot water and an electric cooker, and spring was approaching as it was late April, so i turned off the gas at the meter, warned the tenant not to turn it on, she agreed and acknowledged that she did not need heating as the weather was very mild.

In the mean time I tried to update this matter to my agent just to let him know that I am taking all the necessary steps to remedy the situation as the heating had suffered a catastrophic failure, and i have turned the gas off!

Immediately the agent blew his top off, he said i should not have turned the gas off as I have just committed a criminal offence under the housing act! what the hell I replied, I said I turned the gas off because of safety being the paramount and not the housing law, so next day he wrote a letter to me terminating his services with an immediate effect, I have since not gone back to rejoin this agent and got a gas safe engineer to fit a new wet central heating system.

But would you believe that the Warm Air heating failure was actually caused by the tenant, she had stuffed padded jackets in each of the upstairs ducts that carry warm air in upstairs room in order to conserve her heating bills! this caused the warm air unit cupboard to overheat like an oven and melt the front plastic cover!

She was given S21 notice and left on the 12th hour and glad to say I did not need to seek a court possession order, she handed the keys back and left owing me 7 months in rent plus the damage she caused to the property cost ne a further 10K.

Micheal I do take gas safety very seriously, especially CO poisoning, she even had the permanent vents blocked off as this warm air heating was not a balanced flue, and it was a gas safe requirement to have permanent vents, she sealed these with a brown tape, she was dicing with death. She took batteries off the carbon monoxide detector to run her children's toys! That is the tenants for you, they don't regard their own safety and that of her two young children.