When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
For months now, those of us in the housing advice world have been watching the slow motion car crash that is the unfolding housing benefit changes and we are nearly at the point where the airbag fails...
I’ve been a bit quiet of late. Knocked out by a killer dose of what Frazzy calls ‘Man Flu’ and like the rest of you, running around tying up loose ends before Xmas descends on us for 4 days of food...
Probably like many readers of Property 118, I watched Landlords from Hell on Channel 4 last night with a mixture of annoyance and head shaking depression.
I feel partly responsible as having appeared briefly...
Landlords working guide to housing case law Abandonment etc
This is the first of a new and occasional series (In other words as the mood takes me) where I try to explain my world as an enforcement officer...
As I read my way through developments in the housing world on a daily basis I see increasing reference to perceptions about social housing tenants which seems to be becoming a source of more concern for...
By Guest Columnist Ben Reeve-Lewis
I work for a council in London. I’m the landlord’s nemesis, the bogey man, a Tenancy Relations Officer; the guy who prosecutes landlords for harassment and illegal...
Answer? – When it’s an Assured Tenancy. Rubbish joke I know.
Most conversations I read on Property 118 and other websites centre on ASTs and the rules and regulations that surround them, but did you...
Most readers of my articles know about my work on landlord/tenant law issues. What many of you don’t know is that 50% of my work these days is negotiating with banks to stop repossessions where people...
Regular readers will know that I am a working Tenancy Relations Officer dealing with harassment and illegal eviction cases and also a freelance trainer of housing staff, delivering housing law courses...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
My last article on Property 118 brought forth a host of questions from landlords wondering whether their property was in or out of the HMO grip.
I got questions saying “Help! is my house an HMO?” and...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
When a tenant has a beef with their landlord, I’m the guy they go to. My job is to either negotiate or prosecute, depending on the circumstances. This occasional and random series aims to let landlords...
What do you think of the way councils operate in relation to housing in your area? Do you think they are on the ball? – Helpful? – Proactive? – A blessing or a curse?
Not only can I guess...
Until July 2015 I was part of the London Borough of Lewisham's rogue landlord enforcement team. We were formed with the sole purpose of avoiding licensing by doing exactly what David Lawrenson suggests above.
Lewisham's model is a multi agency unit pooling together TROs (Me) EHOs, planning enforcement, building control and trading standards. We also worked in partnership across boroughs and very closely with the Met Police, immigration police, utility company revenue protection teams etc. We identified 29 existing local authority enforcement powers between us and we used as many as possible in every case.
1 year in, I took Newham's annual figures and broke them down into monthly averages and our targeted approach more or less matched their success rate. Difference is we utilised existing teams where Newham employed around 120 enforcement officers to kick start theirs.
But portfolio counsellors and senior council executives want publicity and good statistics. While we quietly got on with the job (the team is still going) events overtook us.
Last week I attended a meeting of enforcement officers where we were informed that back in April 19 other London local authorities were carrying out consultations on licensing, where a couple of years before it was only one or two and most rejected the idea at that time because they knew to do it effectively means a massive financial investment.
David will recall attending an event a couple of years back where enforcement officers pretty widely rejected licensing for its impracticality. The tide has turned and in councils, enforcement officers now look with grave reservations on licensing as an inevitability.... Read More
You have to ask yourself "If I was a tenant and my landlord kept coming around to visit the property every month would it make want to leave?", because the definition of the criminal offence of harassment in Section 1 (3)a; of the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 is acts that are done that are 'LIKELY' to cause the residential occupier to give up their accommodation.
Periodic visits are totally acceptable and advisable but every month could p[ut a landlord in a tricky position. Even if a council took no action under the PFEA then the actions can still be considered as a civil offence of "Breach of covenant for quiet enjoyment".
You have to balance out reasonable safeguards with a tenant's rights to occupy peacefully without interference or being treated like a naughty school child.
Micro-managing like that is also just as stressful on the landlord. I was one once, I wouldnt do it again, I think there are easier ways of making a living. Cannabis farming for instance haha... Read More
I think the inspection is the clincher. Although the farms themselves arent the model of sophistication, they can afford to lose a few, the gangs behind them are very organised.
Usually Vietnamese around my area but not everywhere. A colleague tells me Russian in Leamington Spa and I have heard a few Afghans in Somerset..
The person the landlord or the agent meets is what the american's call a Patsy, a front. Often putting their name and contacts up for a cash payment from the gang who never set foot in the place, which is usually run by poor people whose family is under threat by the same gang.
One person I met who foolishly agreed to let them use his shop as a front got cold feet and wanted out. the gang demanded £16,000 as an exit clause. When he refused a bullet was posted through his letterbox and the next day his house was firebombed.
The places frequently catch fire too.
It annoys me when people not in the know make comments about a 'Little bit of weed for a Saturday night" when they dont realise that that baggy gets in their pocket by way of people trafficking, blackmail and death trap properties.
I have offered to go into several local estate agents who have been caught out and offer them a quick talk on how to spot the signs but nobody is interested once that money gets slammed down on the table.
Anyway I'll shut up now. I'm dragging this off-post :)... Read More
I'm sure that there are a million reasons why a tenant would want or need to pay up front. My cannabis farm warning is just one angle and probably reflects more on where I live and work than anything else.
All I'm saying is I've never been involved in a cannabis farm when there hasnt been 6 month's rent up front, which is not the same as saying that 6 month's rent upfront means skullduggery.
A visit 6 - 8 weeks into the letting will sort it, plus liaise with EDF Revenue to see if there is any excess use of electricity. The last one I was involved in the tenants had an electricity key meter but were whacking on £80 a week.
Leaks to neighbouring properties are another sign as the automated watering systems dont work very well... Read More
Unfortunately your research has seriously let you down.
Whilst a landlord does have certain limited rights to choose what type of tenancy they can create, for instance an Assured Tenancy instead of an Assured Shorthold they don’t get to choose whether they can create a tenancy or a licence.
It is the circumstances of the letting itself that dictates that because of some pretty basic elements of land law.
A tenancy is a legal entity that is capable of transfer, that’s why council tenants can do mutual exchanges and why a partner can inherit a tenancy on death of the actual tenant, whereas a licence is merely ‘Permission to occupy’, that can be withdrawn by the landlord.
Because an occupier’s fundamental legal rights are at stake this isn’t left up to choice.
The defining case law is Street v. Mountford (1986), which in part involved the landlord reserving the right to enter the premises without permission of the occupier as a tactic for defeating security. Judge Templeman held that this reservation was not genuine and that the agreement was therefore a ‘Sham’ designed to rob the occupier of her full security.
The judge famously said “The manufacture of a five pronged instrument for manual digging results in a fork, even if the manufacturer insists he has made a spade”.
Although this might just appear as legal tosh it is absolutely crucial to be aware of because if you treat your occupiers as licensees and evict accordingly you could find yourself on the end of a very expensive criminal and civil law claim for unlawful eviction. I know….I do these all the time for a living.
Judges in these matters wouldn’t be interested in ”But I thought they were licensees” as a defence.
From what you say of your circumstances the only way that your HMO crew would be licensees is if you lived with them and shared bathroom and toilet in the style of Rigsby from Rising Damp or you provided a significant level of support services or cooked meals.
And @Neil, I would like to revise that figure and say it is actually 22 types of tenancy and licence now to my knowledge... Read More
Matthew you need to call my colleague in Croydon Council, the Tenancy Relations Officer about the eviction and the landlord's behaviour towards you. Do it now because the longer you leave it the harder it is for TROs to take emergency action.
Harassment and illegal are criminal offences under the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 but it is the council not the police which prosecutes under this legislation.
I would also call Croydon's planning department about the unlawful building. If they are to serve planning notices ordering them to tear it down then they must do so no later than 4 years after it being built, otherwise it gets problematical and they could leave it standing.
Also call this number 0800 788 887...the HMRC tax dodger line because you can bet your next year's income your dodgy landlord isnt paying tax on the rental income. (Sorry folks but its in the dirty tricks bag of the working TRO)
Keep all receipts for things you have to spend out on whilst out of the property (Laundry, take-aways etc) Also get the new Argos catalogue and began creating a list of the cost of replacement goods that have been damaged because you should also begin a civil claim against the landlords. If you are eligible for legal aid try Anthony Gold Solicitors in Walworth Road (This is the cre who run the Nearly Legal blog) or Olu Ayodeji at Duncan Lewis in New Cross. Good committed guy who really knows his stuff. Alternatively the Croydon TRO might have a more local one she can recommend... Read More
Yeah I honestly dont know how they apportion the jobs in the team.
The fact is that before they introduced licensing they had an enviable record of prosecution, 120 last year alone but this isnt all the figures puts forward. The fact is that among the rash of enforcement actions being proferred it isnt just landlords being nicked for bad properties but also tenants for ASB.... Read More
Well this raises questions about Newham doesnt it?
Landlords have registered 30,000 properties since the start of their licensing programme this year. There was a discount for landlords who registered before the end of January 2013; after that it was the full fee.
If all 30,000 properties had registered in January the income would have been £4.5 million. If all 30,000 properties had been registered after that date then the licensing income would be £15 million.
Obviously the true figure would be somewhere between those two points. Newham has a team of around 40 to deal with licensing. My council has 2.
Extended HMO licensing is a corporate committment. As I keep saying of this matter it is not an approach driven by front line officers but is a political initiative. The question is "What is Newham doing with the income?"... Read More
All council stuff is political at some level or other. Us lot who work the frontline dont think that way. We spend our lived just trying to do our jobs without covering our backs or thinking about career advancement.
I swear to god guys, if you lot sat in a case meeting with us enforcement types you would be behind us 100%. We want what you want. On a personal level we are sick of seeing villains stick two fingers up because the bureaucracy gets in the way. Everyone I have met from a variety of councils and external organisations are excited about how partnering up can get us somewhere because we deal with the realities day in day out. We know where the gaps and pitfalls are and we know how to sort them.
Newham's scheme is entirely politically driven, not pragmatically driven.
The challenge for me is developing the model of inter-departmental and cross borough information exchange and enforcement action. Finding ways around the apathy of teams worn down by staff cuts, red tape and data sharing protocols and developing a forward thinking 'Can do' approach.
I dint care if that criminal landlords beats his tenants up, steals their deposits, runs unlicensed HMOs gets away with all of it if he only gets done for tax fraud. I dont care what they get done for as long as they get done and taken off the board... Read More
Ian I am hoping to either drive these parasites out of business or at least out of my area. If they fetch up in Stockport let me know haha
This week I have been building links across borough boundaries, as these criminals dont just operate in one area and it's been brilliant, sitting around the table with planning enforcement, Housing benefit, Building Control and EDF Revenue protection from several London boroughs swapping information and it's been quite a find.
Today we found a property owner in our borough who lets his property out through one of our criminal landlords to a mate of his who crams 10 people into a 4 bed house. So far so normal but in having collegaues from another authority around the table we found that the same property owner is himself claiming housing benefit in their borough as a fictituous tenant in a property owned by the other guy who rents his house out as an agent in our borough. Prosecutions for fraud are in the pipeline as we speak.
Also EDF were able to tell us that one of his properties they have on file is running @ 50 Units a week....normal use is around 15, which is a classic sign of an operating canabbis factory. HB Fraud? Yep and get ready for a dawn raid by cops, EDF and me too.
This guy has 25 properties that we now know about and are closing in on from a variety of angles. We dont need licensing. We know out villains and all enforcement officer from within and without the council share information and resources, so they cant even breathe without our growing network knowing all about it. We all have each other's personal emails and phone numbers so we can bypass the usual red tape and even call each other at 9PM if need be. Good committed people whose job doesnt end at 5pm.
And amazingly, this costs the council tax payer zero. Information sharing, joined up working/thinking, pooling resources gets us what we want. We take the bad guys off the board and protect the citizens of our borough and neighbouring ones too. And I've only been in post 3 weeks haha... Read More
10:55 AM, 24th September 2015, About 9 years ago
Until July 2015 I was part of the London Borough of Lewisham's rogue landlord enforcement team. We were formed with the sole purpose of avoiding licensing by doing exactly what David Lawrenson suggests above.
Lewisham's model is a multi agency unit pooling together TROs (Me) EHOs, planning enforcement, building control and trading standards. We also worked in partnership across boroughs and very closely with the Met Police, immigration police, utility company revenue protection teams etc. We identified 29 existing local authority enforcement powers between us and we used as many as possible in every case.
1 year in, I took Newham's annual figures and broke them down into monthly averages and our targeted approach more or less matched their success rate. Difference is we utilised existing teams where Newham employed around 120 enforcement officers to kick start theirs.
But portfolio counsellors and senior council executives want publicity and good statistics. While we quietly got on with the job (the team is still going) events overtook us.
Last week I attended a meeting of enforcement officers where we were informed that back in April 19 other London local authorities were carrying out consultations on licensing, where a couple of years before it was only one or two and most rejected the idea at that time because they knew to do it effectively means a massive financial investment.
David will recall attending an event a couple of years back where enforcement officers pretty widely rejected licensing for its impracticality. The tide has turned and in councils, enforcement officers now look with grave reservations on licensing as an inevitability.... Read More
13:03 PM, 11th January 2014, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Joe Bloggs" at "11/01/2014 - 12:27
... Read More
11:31 AM, 11th January 2014, About 11 years ago
Joe there is periodic and there is "PERIODIC????"
You have to ask yourself "If I was a tenant and my landlord kept coming around to visit the property every month would it make want to leave?", because the definition of the criminal offence of harassment in Section 1 (3)a; of the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 is acts that are done that are 'LIKELY' to cause the residential occupier to give up their accommodation.
Periodic visits are totally acceptable and advisable but every month could p[ut a landlord in a tricky position. Even if a council took no action under the PFEA then the actions can still be considered as a civil offence of "Breach of covenant for quiet enjoyment".
You have to balance out reasonable safeguards with a tenant's rights to occupy peacefully without interference or being treated like a naughty school child.
Micro-managing like that is also just as stressful on the landlord. I was one once, I wouldnt do it again, I think there are easier ways of making a living. Cannabis farming for instance haha... Read More
14:52 PM, 10th January 2014, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Jeremy Smith" at "10/01/2014 - 10:39
... Read More
14:43 PM, 10th January 2014, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Sue P" at "10/01/2014 - 14:39
... Read More
14:07 PM, 10th January 2014, About 11 years ago
I think the inspection is the clincher. Although the farms themselves arent the model of sophistication, they can afford to lose a few, the gangs behind them are very organised.
Usually Vietnamese around my area but not everywhere. A colleague tells me Russian in Leamington Spa and I have heard a few Afghans in Somerset..
The person the landlord or the agent meets is what the american's call a Patsy, a front. Often putting their name and contacts up for a cash payment from the gang who never set foot in the place, which is usually run by poor people whose family is under threat by the same gang.
One person I met who foolishly agreed to let them use his shop as a front got cold feet and wanted out. the gang demanded £16,000 as an exit clause. When he refused a bullet was posted through his letterbox and the next day his house was firebombed.
The places frequently catch fire too.
It annoys me when people not in the know make comments about a 'Little bit of weed for a Saturday night" when they dont realise that that baggy gets in their pocket by way of people trafficking, blackmail and death trap properties.
I have offered to go into several local estate agents who have been caught out and offer them a quick talk on how to spot the signs but nobody is interested once that money gets slammed down on the table.
Anyway I'll shut up now. I'm dragging this off-post :)... Read More
13:48 PM, 10th January 2014, About 11 years ago
I feel like the voice of doom and gloom here haha
I'm sure that there are a million reasons why a tenant would want or need to pay up front. My cannabis farm warning is just one angle and probably reflects more on where I live and work than anything else.
All I'm saying is I've never been involved in a cannabis farm when there hasnt been 6 month's rent up front, which is not the same as saying that 6 month's rent upfront means skullduggery.
A visit 6 - 8 weeks into the letting will sort it, plus liaise with EDF Revenue to see if there is any excess use of electricity. The last one I was involved in the tenants had an electricity key meter but were whacking on £80 a week.
Leaks to neighbouring properties are another sign as the automated watering systems dont work very well... Read More
12:49 PM, 10th January 2014, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Mark Alexander" at "10/01/2014 - 12:12
... Read More
20:23 PM, 28th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "HMOLandlady " at "28/12/2013 - 19:25
... Read More
18:48 PM, 28th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "HMOLandlady " at "28/12/2013 - 18:33
... Read More
12:18 PM, 24th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Jeremy Smith" at "24/12/2013 - 11:09
... Read More
9:39 AM, 24th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Matthew Mackenzie" at "23/12/2013 - 18:43
... Read More
9:23 AM, 24th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Ben Reeve-Lewis" at "24/12/2013 - 09:20
... Read More
9:20 AM, 24th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Reply to the comment left by "Ian Ringrose" at "24/12/2013 - 09:11
... Read More
8:59 AM, 24th December 2013, About 11 years ago
Unfortunately your research has seriously let you down.
Whilst a landlord does have certain limited rights to choose what type of tenancy they can create, for instance an Assured Tenancy instead of an Assured Shorthold they don’t get to choose whether they can create a tenancy or a licence.
It is the circumstances of the letting itself that dictates that because of some pretty basic elements of land law.
A tenancy is a legal entity that is capable of transfer, that’s why council tenants can do mutual exchanges and why a partner can inherit a tenancy on death of the actual tenant, whereas a licence is merely ‘Permission to occupy’, that can be withdrawn by the landlord.
Because an occupier’s fundamental legal rights are at stake this isn’t left up to choice.
The defining case law is Street v. Mountford (1986), which in part involved the landlord reserving the right to enter the premises without permission of the occupier as a tactic for defeating security. Judge Templeman held that this reservation was not genuine and that the agreement was therefore a ‘Sham’ designed to rob the occupier of her full security.
The judge famously said “The manufacture of a five pronged instrument for manual digging results in a fork, even if the manufacturer insists he has made a spade”.
Although this might just appear as legal tosh it is absolutely crucial to be aware of because if you treat your occupiers as licensees and evict accordingly you could find yourself on the end of a very expensive criminal and civil law claim for unlawful eviction. I know….I do these all the time for a living.
Judges in these matters wouldn’t be interested in ”But I thought they were licensees” as a defence.
From what you say of your circumstances the only way that your HMO crew would be licensees is if you lived with them and shared bathroom and toilet in the style of Rigsby from Rising Damp or you provided a significant level of support services or cooked meals.
And @Neil, I would like to revise that figure and say it is actually 22 types of tenancy and licence now to my knowledge... Read More
14:31 PM, 23rd December 2013, About 11 years ago
Matthew you need to call my colleague in Croydon Council, the Tenancy Relations Officer about the eviction and the landlord's behaviour towards you. Do it now because the longer you leave it the harder it is for TROs to take emergency action.
Harassment and illegal are criminal offences under the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 but it is the council not the police which prosecutes under this legislation.
I would also call Croydon's planning department about the unlawful building. If they are to serve planning notices ordering them to tear it down then they must do so no later than 4 years after it being built, otherwise it gets problematical and they could leave it standing.
Also call this number 0800 788 887...the HMRC tax dodger line because you can bet your next year's income your dodgy landlord isnt paying tax on the rental income. (Sorry folks but its in the dirty tricks bag of the working TRO)
Keep all receipts for things you have to spend out on whilst out of the property (Laundry, take-aways etc) Also get the new Argos catalogue and began creating a list of the cost of replacement goods that have been damaged because you should also begin a civil claim against the landlords. If you are eligible for legal aid try Anthony Gold Solicitors in Walworth Road (This is the cre who run the Nearly Legal blog) or Olu Ayodeji at Duncan Lewis in New Cross. Good committed guy who really knows his stuff. Alternatively the Croydon TRO might have a more local one she can recommend... Read More
18:47 PM, 11th November 2013, About 11 years ago
Yeah I honestly dont know how they apportion the jobs in the team.
The fact is that before they introduced licensing they had an enviable record of prosecution, 120 last year alone but this isnt all the figures puts forward. The fact is that among the rash of enforcement actions being proferred it isnt just landlords being nicked for bad properties but also tenants for ASB.... Read More
18:30 PM, 11th November 2013, About 11 years ago
Well this raises questions about Newham doesnt it?
Landlords have registered 30,000 properties since the start of their licensing programme this year. There was a discount for landlords who registered before the end of January 2013; after that it was the full fee.
If all 30,000 properties had registered in January the income would have been £4.5 million. If all 30,000 properties had been registered after that date then the licensing income would be £15 million.
Obviously the true figure would be somewhere between those two points. Newham has a team of around 40 to deal with licensing. My council has 2.
Extended HMO licensing is a corporate committment. As I keep saying of this matter it is not an approach driven by front line officers but is a political initiative. The question is "What is Newham doing with the income?"... Read More
22:11 PM, 7th November 2013, About 11 years ago
All council stuff is political at some level or other. Us lot who work the frontline dont think that way. We spend our lived just trying to do our jobs without covering our backs or thinking about career advancement.
I swear to god guys, if you lot sat in a case meeting with us enforcement types you would be behind us 100%. We want what you want. On a personal level we are sick of seeing villains stick two fingers up because the bureaucracy gets in the way. Everyone I have met from a variety of councils and external organisations are excited about how partnering up can get us somewhere because we deal with the realities day in day out. We know where the gaps and pitfalls are and we know how to sort them.
Newham's scheme is entirely politically driven, not pragmatically driven.
The challenge for me is developing the model of inter-departmental and cross borough information exchange and enforcement action. Finding ways around the apathy of teams worn down by staff cuts, red tape and data sharing protocols and developing a forward thinking 'Can do' approach.
I dint care if that criminal landlords beats his tenants up, steals their deposits, runs unlicensed HMOs gets away with all of it if he only gets done for tax fraud. I dont care what they get done for as long as they get done and taken off the board... Read More
20:28 PM, 6th November 2013, About 11 years ago
Ian I am hoping to either drive these parasites out of business or at least out of my area. If they fetch up in Stockport let me know haha
This week I have been building links across borough boundaries, as these criminals dont just operate in one area and it's been brilliant, sitting around the table with planning enforcement, Housing benefit, Building Control and EDF Revenue protection from several London boroughs swapping information and it's been quite a find.
Today we found a property owner in our borough who lets his property out through one of our criminal landlords to a mate of his who crams 10 people into a 4 bed house. So far so normal but in having collegaues from another authority around the table we found that the same property owner is himself claiming housing benefit in their borough as a fictituous tenant in a property owned by the other guy who rents his house out as an agent in our borough. Prosecutions for fraud are in the pipeline as we speak.
Also EDF were able to tell us that one of his properties they have on file is running @ 50 Units a week....normal use is around 15, which is a classic sign of an operating canabbis factory. HB Fraud? Yep and get ready for a dawn raid by cops, EDF and me too.
This guy has 25 properties that we now know about and are closing in on from a variety of angles. We dont need licensing. We know out villains and all enforcement officer from within and without the council share information and resources, so they cant even breathe without our growing network knowing all about it. We all have each other's personal emails and phone numbers so we can bypass the usual red tape and even call each other at 9PM if need be. Good committed people whose job doesnt end at 5pm.
And amazingly, this costs the council tax payer zero. Information sharing, joined up working/thinking, pooling resources gets us what we want. We take the bad guys off the board and protect the citizens of our borough and neighbouring ones too. And I've only been in post 3 weeks haha... Read More