An ode to economics and the tax system

Tom - if you want to give all of your money away to those who were born into less fortunate circumstances than your own children then go ahead and do so, it's your money. When you do that you will earn the right to preach to me, but even then I will still have the choice of whether to listen to you or not. I'm bored of talking to you about this now as it is clear we will never agree on these matters.

Well it would be a very dull world if we all agreed with each other. I am today thinking about the demise of Thatcher. A woman seemingly adored in the south and villified in the north (where I hail from).

I look at all the draconian benefit changes Cameron and his Eton Messes are imposing this week and wonder if it occurs to anyone that Thatcher was almost entirely responsible for the massive benefit culture which now threatens to sink the UK. I find it extremely difficult to vocalise the culture that was inherent among the men who worked in heavy engineering. They were frequently poorly paid and treated yet had a huge work ethic and had enormous pride in what they did. Yes the unions did get out of hand to a degree, but once again we had the shipyard owners with their Northumbrian shooting estates while the workers lived in almost poverty (my grandfather was one so I know the score). However their children were well fed, clothed, impecibly behaved and were seen as reflection of their parents. Front gardens, where they had one, were neat and tidy and yes the front step was indeed scrubbed every day.

Then Thatcher turned on them decided that if she got rid of the shipyards and the mines the left would be crushed. But she had nothing to put in their place. Britain ceased to be an manufacturing centre and the economy was to be built on the house of card that is the 'financial institutions.' Thousands of hard working men were thrown out of work. Ships were built in the far east and we imported coal from Bolivia where they employed children as young as 12 down the mines.

The few jobs enticed to the North East were tecnology companies bribed with grants. These were never going to employ the men who had been made jobless. The result was vibrant hardworking communities sank into the underclass we see today. One in four houses in the NE have never known anyone in their family work. Girls became pregnant to get away from home and get their own place. Unheard of when I grew up in the 60s and 70s. The shame would have killed my parents.

Putting a huge proportion of the working population on the dole meant the closure of car dealerships, furniture stores - the working class always spent their money. Many areas round Newcastle are pretty much wastelands now.

Yes I know many of you will say it was uneconomic to mine coal and build ships in the UK, but what is the real cost 30yrs down the line. If we had been prepared to keep some form of subsidies, people would have worked, paid tax, kept the local shops and businesses in work and given their children a work ethic. Something a huge proportion of young people no longer possess.

So while Thatcher is being honoured with an 'almost' State Funeral remember those whose livlihoods and futures she crushed and was triumphant doing so.

So say's the little Geordie girl sitting in self build £750,000 house on the South Coast, who left school with 3 O levels an was taught my my parents to work for what I got. I could only watch as the devastation happened around me.

What a fantastic post Gillian, I had never considered some of the things you have pointed out. Much of the story of you and your family bears a very close resemblance to mine. My family are from Stoke on Trent and Wolverhampton, two other towns decimated by the closure of coal mines and heavy industry such that you have described.

As it says in the original piece :

"For those that don't understand no explanation is possible"

For those that question the rights and wrongs of inherited wealth I ask them :
would they not want to help their own children? To pass on what they achieved? Or would they leave their own child in poverty just to donate their wealth to some cats home ?
We all aspire for a better life. Some of us do so by the sweat of out brow, others by the sweat of someone else. That is not a sad observation as it is structured within our DNA. All this happens just the same in the wild.
Albeit on a different level but animals have the very same concept of gain, wealth and use of others for gain. The difference stop there as the ability to question their actions is lacking.

I thought long and hard before responding to this but some of the comments, particularly about the effect of immigrants on the working population are just plain wrong and not a true reflection of the immigrant experience. Much of the economic comment is also wrong

Firstly, communism does not work. Whatever you call it taking away from one person to give to another always fails. If Government try to make this society's system eventually the system crashes. The reason is partly economic because the model does not work but also because aspiration is a natural part of the human psyche and ultimately people need the hope that they can work hard enough to achieve enough to improve on their present economic position.

Secondly avarice is not a good economic model. The idea that if you could only get the rich to pay more the poor would be richer is incorrect. The proof of this is when the Labour Government increased some taxation to 98% and saw the tax take fall rapidly is a good example of how this is flawed thinking

Thirdly, we need a strong welfare state. Amongst humans there is a natural desire to protect the weakest and the disabled. There is no basic urge to protect the lazy. The creation of a sound welfare state means that everyone contributes and only those in genuine need take from it. The idea that in a healthy society there can be generations of people who do not work because they can get more on benefits is insane and is not sustainable. Also, and most importantly, it deprives the most needed of a sensible level of support.

Fourthly, if some of your bloggers achieved their aim of having all the rich give up their wealth they would find society in chaos. Perhaps they have forgotten that the majority of people of means have their own homes, educate their children privately, have private medical insurance, drive rather than use public transport and pay for the care of the elderly out of their own funds. If you took away people's wealth you would be creating a huge burden for the social services, education system, healthcare system and housing. How would you deal with that - some cultures have dealt with it like Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot by murdering the middle classes!!!

Lastly, , it is no surprise that the dependency culture has grown with the devaluing of the family. As Mark so rightly says he learnt from his family that the route to success was hard work. You could look at other people and envy their wealth but only in the knowledge that you had to work hard to emulate it; it would not come to you as a right or by taking anything away from anyone else.

Nowadays if you ask so many kids what they hope to achieve the answer is fame -fame achieved via the X Factor or celebrity magazines or the internet; hard work does not figure in the equation. which is the basic safety net of most people has taking a bashing.

Without wanting to sound like a reactionary the denigration of family values, of parents being able to impart the importance of self sufficiency, hard work and good values to children has meant that there are far too many people from fractured families who have nowhere to turn for guidance.

It is fair to say that Mrs. Thatcher did her bit to destroy communities and for that she is now answering to a higher authority than me BUT it is equally true to say that Tony Blair's encouragement and growth of the welfare system is equally to blame. Even he now realises this and he can see that under Mr. Milliband the Labour Party have nothing to offer in terms of policy but are just becoming a party of protest.

What we need is a Government who will protect the poorest in society and encourage everyone else (even the rich) to go out and be productive; to have low taxation to encourage spending and sensible policies in place in terms of Government spending and safeguards to ensure that monies are not spent unwisely in education or in ring fencing an unsustainable health service. The rights of pensioners to universal benefits also needs looking at.

in areas or cultures where the family has remained strong the example of hard If you add into this mix the issue of immigration you are on a very slippery slope.

This brings me to the really delicate subject of. immigration which obviously needs to be controlled.

The argument that immigrants are taking away jobs from the English is a bit of an old canard and is really just a bit of anti immigrant rhetoric and sometimes something worse!!!

Most first generation immigrants are doing the jobs that the English do not want at any price. Again that is because in the Nineties the Labour Party creating a society based on "financial services" which meant that every person thought they were entitled to a white collar job rather than manual labour which became unpopular.

Of course, I can only speak from my limited experience. I am lucky enough to have a housekeeper (mainly because I work full time) and whilst I only need to change my help every five years or so, since my last English helper left 18 years ago at the age of 66 having been with me for eight years I have not had one English applicant. In business we had a vacancy for a junior who was literate and numerate for more than six months before we found someone who had the faintest idea how to conduct themselves in an professional atmosphere. We had many applicants from Eastern European and Indian sub-continent immigrants, all highly qualified; all willing to work and not one of whom told us they could get more on benefits as we were told by quite a few applicants. The job paid £14K as a starting salary. The person who took it is now on £21K.

Immigrants are hugely important to the country and most make a go of it. I am the grandchild of immigrants. All four grandparents fled the pogroms of Eastern Europe at the turn of the 20th century. Four interesting stories. I will share one.

At the age of 15 my grandfather received papers conscripting him to the Russian Army for 25 years; basically a death sentence for a Jew in those days. He fled and he walked to where he could purchase the cheapest possible passage to England on a cargo ship. When he arrived in the East End someone saw a young boy and allowed him to sleep on their floor until he looked for work the next day. Please note there was no social security; if he did not work he did not eat. He took any work he could and eventually he became a tailor. Because he saved and saved he eventually owned a flat. He never learnt to read and write because Jews were not allowed to go to school in Russian and when he got to England he never had time - he was always working. He was a good citizen and served as an Air Raid Warden in World War II An immigrant experience.

In his turn my father was a second generation immigrant. conscripted to the British Army at the age of 19. He served for seven years; lost all his brothers and sisters in the Blitz (he was granted 30 days compassionate leave; no counselling and no compensation) and he was demobbed in 1946 with a £5 note, a suit that did not fit, no home and two badly injured parents who survived the death of almost all their children. He went back to his job as a trainee pattern cutter and he always told us that the first thing the shop steward said to him was "Didn't expect to see any f****** Jews coming back to take our jobs". Needless to say he also worked hard and his biggest achievement was his own house. The story of an immigrant's child

For my part I had the benefit of growing up in a civilised country with no major wars, with parents that loved and encouraged me, a good education, a strong faith and a strong community. I did well having worked very hard and I guess I am one of the ones some of you would would call "rich". What have I contributed to my host country:

I am a wealth creator
I employ people at fair wages
I pay tax at the highest rate
I own my own home
I educated my children privately
I have health care
I pay for severely disabled mother to live in a nursing home

and if that is not sufficient , when I am dead the Government will tax everything I leave behind, which incidentally has been taxed already, at a high level. That's the story of an immigrant's grandchild

I love England; it gave my grandparent's refuge and my family the opportunity of a better lift but like many others I pay it back every day of my life and hope to do so for many years. There are, of course, abuses but there are also benefits of immigration which some people choose to ignore.

Everyone has a part to play, be it wealth creator, worker or a disabled person who needs our help. Let's have a bit less vitriol and lot more understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses. Historically, that's what put the Great into Britain

Not sure why you would ask that question, as it has no relevance to the issue. Yes, I would want to help my own children by passing on to them what I had achieved, but I recognise that giving them a financial advantage over other children is not fair. If the state takes my house on my death, it can use it for housing those who need it, or if my estate needs to sell it, to pay inheritance tax, the government can use that to fund the NHS, house building etc.. If my children take it they might use it to gain unearned wealth as private landlords. If they really need somewhere to live, the government can house them using funds gained from fairer taxation such as 100% inheritance tax.

In addition, my children would gain the benefits of living in a fairer society. Again I refer you to http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/research to which nobody on this thread seems to have a response.

I don’t understand about the cats' home. Could you explain?

I did look at the link Tom but if you want to know how to improve children's lives, their potential, their capability to think, learn, develop and be creative and hopefully achieve it is quite simple and it does not take a lot of money. In fact it is a really economical way of running a family and a return to good old fashioned values.

Turn off the tv. It is not meant as a babysitter. I did not have tv until my youngest child was 7 and reading fluently.
Remove all tvs, computers, games consoles from bedrooms. These need to be in a family area where parents can see what their children are doing and be on and to prevent unhealthy contacts or viewing of porn and other unsuitable stuff
Have bedrooms used for sleep and not solitary living quarters
Restrict use of computers etc for above reasons
Forbid the use of social media, which is positively dangerous for children in lots of ways, until mid to late teens
Eat with your children, eating proper food and not expensive and nutritionally unsound junk
Talk to your children
Engage and encourage your children's health interests and ambitions

Trust me if we returned to this we would see a very different society even if some people, particularly those on very limited incomes, would see a difference in their lives

I know you are going to come back to me and say that it is difficult when two parents work but how many people are working to provide the "extras" like the individual computers and tvs and how much better it would be to perhaps have a little less income and a bit more time for your family

On housing we do need a cohesive housing policy which looks after the poorest in society and a strong NHS but that does not detract from anything I said.

I think your plan is a bit of a zero option as far as most working people who would like to leave their children something is concerned and as far as 100% inheritance tax is concerned do you really think anyone would pay it. Everything would be given away during a person's lifetime which is what people with any sense do now to avoid what is a truly iniquitous tax

@think before you speak - Well said and what an inspirational story you have to tell. I wouldn't bother responding to Tom if I were you. I've had to delete one of his posts as I considered it to be abusive. Clearly he disagrees with the business of being a landlord so heaven only knows why he's chosen to visit this forum which was created to enable landlords and letting agents to share best practice.

@Gillian; just a bit of history, Harold Wilson got the miners to strike in the early 70s, with some help from the now Lord Scargill, in order to bring down the Heath government with the promise of a massive pay rise. and true to his word miners ended up with.....you may find this disturbing... .reportedly £1200 PER WEEK. at the time your average house cost £5000. and that is why we now have no mines and we import coal from .....anywhere. that was 1972/3

@think before you speak; quite a story. some similarities to my own family history. and what stands out is your family, and mine, did all that without a welfare system in place to support them. it's survival of the fittest. Natures very own natural selection process. only taken 2 billion years to develop

@everyone; it is now illegal to be racist, can't make jokes about invalids nor other religions, can't beat-up gays or criticise fat people.....but you can beat up and rob the rich. why is that ? what did they do that is so wrong ? they worked. that's what they did. they worked bloody hard.
Nature gave them the "work bloody hard gene" and everyone else thinks they are freaks.
perhaps there should be clinics for them to go to, to have that gene surgically removed.

@Mark A; please wait here for your appointment with the clinic. you seem to have a double dose of the work hard gene.
.

Cosmo sorry to shatter any illusions you have but I grew up in a mining community in the 70s. The £1200 is utterly ludicrous. I have checked with my ex coal face miner uncle and the wage was a very generous (for the time) about £115 per week plus bonuses of about £20-£60. However coal face mining is probably the worst job anyone in the UK could ever have. However there was alot of animosity by the face miners that the surface staff were paid almost as much and shared any incentives.