11:00 AM, 27th July 2024, About 4 months ago 78
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There are always two sides to every story, this is ours.
Following the triumph in our legal action against the West Brom Mortgage Company, a wave of euphoria and satisfaction swept through the landlord community. The justice system had prevailed, and common sense had won the day. We were weary yet elated, comforted by the knowledge that we were safeguarded by England’s legal system – a system steeped in a legacy of fairness. It had taken us three years, a substantial crowdfunding campaign, severe criticism and overwhelming support. Yet, we had achieved it – securing a victory that slayed the bully of an all-powerful corporation that arrogantly assumed it could bend the rules to its will, beyond breaking point!
Funnily enough, we received a lot of criticism at the time from people posting on other landlord forums and generally on social media. The comments ranged from people being generally supportive, but telling us that we didn’t stand a chance and we shouldn’t bother, to others loudly professing that we were conning people out of their money by asking for their support in our crowdfunding efforts.
Does this sound familiar?
Property118 was not originally designed to offer tax planning strategies to landlords. It emerged from frequent enquiries and discussions on forums, highlighting a clear demand for comprehensive assistance in all aspects of being a professional and ethical landlord. Our mission statement has never changed; To facilitate the sharing of best practice among UK landlords and the Private Rented Sector.
As an entrepreneur, I have always believed that addressing a widespread issue often presents a solid business opportunity. The challenge for landlords was that professional legal advice was often financially prohibitive for the average individual. As a result, many landlords had to navigate the complex maze of financial and legal requirements on their own, often incurring substantial costs through errors.
I adopted an approach that has always served me well: start with the customer and work backwards. I still maintain that Steve Jobs borrowed this philosophy from me, though I’m sure he would disagree if he was still alive.
Mark Smith, of Cotswold Barristers, and I developed a strong relationship following the West Brom case, united in our understanding that there existed a genuine problem. We conducted thorough research into common taxation practices within the landlord sector, running into thousands of hours identifying and categorising the strategies employed by larger corporations and other industries that were in compliance with existing legislation. We also sought external counsel from the most respected sources for areas requiring specialised knowledge. It was evident that obtaining independent advice from a barrister’s firm could typically cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. In response, we devised a method to make this advice accessible to the landlord community at a fraction of the usual cost.
This proved to be successful for many years as we worked with complete transparency with the public, sharing our thoughts and options for efficient and best practices. We devised a method where I would consult with clients (initially it was just me but I eventually built a team of consultants) and offer suggestions making it clear they were not legal opinion or advice. If the clients wanted to explore these suggestions further we would pass on research, fact-find information, written recommendations, and video recordings of online meetings to Cotswold Barristers. Once reviewed, and only if they agreed with it, Cotswold Barristers adopted our suggestions as their own advice, occasionally with modifications. This process was unique and efficient and it opened an avenue for clients to get a barrister’s opinion at a fraction of the cost that was normal in the industry. Collating information and presenting a case to a barrister is traditionally done via a Solicitor or Chartered Tax Adviser. It is both time-consuming and expensive because these professionals charge several £100’s of pounds per hour.
In addition to maintaining transparency on our public website, both Property118 and Cotswold Barristers have consistently been open and forthcoming with information to HMRC. Over the years, HMRC has conducted multiple compliance checks on our clients and has been fully informed about the strategies we offer to clients. Every question or enquiry posed by HMRC was thoroughly addressed and accepted. At no point did HMRC indicate that any of the advice provided was incorrect.
This point is vitally important. Property118 sought the advice of Barristers’, independent counsel, and was fully transparent with HMRC, and every compliance check that HMRC requested was concluded without any required amendments to tax returns or additional tax demands being required.
There was no indication that our practices were flawed; in fact, we received multiple confirmations from independent tax professionals that they were completely correct. To provide context, clients often involved their professional advisors in video calls, and these advisors recommended our services. We were assured of the robustness of our procedures, which were overseen not only by accountants and solicitors, but also by a whole chamber of barristers. HMRC, too, accepted the advice provided during their 20+ compliance checks. Far from concealing our activities, we openly promoted them on our website, ensuring full visibility and transparency.
Little did we know that it would be this transparency and openness that would create a string of events that leave us in the position we are in now.
Let’s continue.
Dan Neidle, the former head of tax at a prestigious ‘magic circle’ law firm, unexpectedly and unusually retired at the age of 48 after claiming he wanted to spend more time with his family. However, he quickly tired of retirement and positioned himself as a self-styled avenger against tax avoidance and fraud. Gaining initial exposure by spotlighting practices involving high-profile individuals, he appears to have found the attention and notoriety to his liking. He then turned his focus to Property 118. It’s important to note that many tax professionals in the UK employ similar strategies for their clients to those we recommend to our clients. However, our distinctiveness lay in our transparency, which made it easy for Dan Neidle to scrutinise the extensive content we had made available. In our view, he and his associates formed their opinions for sheer sensationalism.
Despite our transparency and the rigorous checks conducted by HMRC, combined with the professional standing of Cotswold Barristers, Dan Neidle chose not to engage with us either in person or via video call, as we had offered on several occasions. Instead, he published a sensational article, seemingly oblivious to—or perhaps ignoring—the potential ramifications of his actions on the employees of Property118 and Cotswold Barristers, and on 100’s of our clients. His disregard for the ensuing panic, stress, and mental health implications, which disrupted the lives of families who believed they were fully compliant with all legal requirements, was both irresponsible and selfish.
If his concerns and claims were genuine, he should have initiated a dialogue with us, reported his concerns directly to HMRC given his extensive contacts, or pursued his opinion within the legal arena on a pro bono basis. Instead, he opted for clicks and fame over a genuine pursuit of justice and fairness.
In response, we sought advice from one of the UK’s top defamation law firms, Brett Wilson LLP. Before they could advise us fully they insisted we consult external counsel to verify the legitimacy of our practices. Committed to full transparency, we asked Brett Wilson to recommend a suitable candidate. They provided two options based on cost and experience, and we chose Felicity Cullen KC of Devereux Chambers, a Tier 1 silk who was later named Tax Silk of the Year by the Legal 500, ensuring we engaged counsel of the highest qualification and reputation to review our practices.
Contrary to Mr. Neidle’s assertions, we did not have direct access to Felicity Cullen KC; our interactions were mediated through the solicitors. We maintained an open book policy with the solicitors, supplying all documents requested and more for review. Counsel’s subsequent assessment fully satisfied the solicitors of the legitimacy of our services. They then proceeded to inform Mr. Neidle of their findings.
Dan Neidle disregarded the established findings, twisted the narrative, and accused us of being “crooks”. He also alleged that we had withheld information from one of the UK’s leading barristers. It’s important to clarify that we did not select nor filter the information or documentation submitted for her review; rather, we provided everything requested by Brett Wilson LLP, including case files, video recordings of consultations, and legal document templates. Our approach was one of complete transparency, without direct contact or decision-making about what to submit.
We were then advised by Brett Wilson on the dynamics of initiating a defamation lawsuit, a process potentially costing over £1,000,000. We were also advised that even with victory, the damages awarded would likely be only a fraction of that sum. Dan Neidle, fully aware of these dynamics, had previously boasted that he is not a good target for litigation, citing his ample financial resources and available time—luxuries many do not possess. This arrogance suggests he believes he can speak without consequence.
To date, our practices have undergone rigorous scrutiny by HMRC, professional external advisors, industry experts, Cotswold Barristers, defamation solicitors, and the country’s leading Tier 1 Tax Silk. All the advice we received constituted actual professional legal opinions, meticulously sought through the proper legal channels from professionals who are fully accountable for their advice
Yet, the power of social media and the allure of sensationalism became Dan Neidle’s weapons of choice, allowing him unfettered freedom to broadcast his biased opinions across unregulated platforms, thereby manipulating the narrative to his advantage. By positioning himself as judge, jury, and executioner in the court of public opinion, his actions not only undermine the very principles of our legal and justice system but also mock it—all without facing any legal consequences. This blatant disregard sets a dangerous precedent, where rhetoric overshadows truth and individual agendas threaten the integrity of our societal foundations without accountability.
It was at this point HMRC started to pursue the narrative of Dan Neidle, adopting a strategy of death by a thousand cuts. This journey was well documented on our forum, it appeared that Dan Neidle’s influence put pressure on HMRC to be seen to act. We then engaged the services of Devereux Chambers to defend and advise us through the tribunal process. They continue to stand firmly by their opinion that our actions are correct and justified under the law.
So …
Here we are (again!), engaged in another David and Goliath battle, though this one bears far greater consequences. Is the pursuit of notoriety and clicks truly worth the stress, fear, and upset inflicted on our employees, consultants, and clients? Is Dan Neidle’s quest for fame so crucial that it justifies these costs?
We remain hopeful that our faith in the British legal system will be vindicated, as we at Property118 are prepared to accept all consequences if it is proven that we acted irresponsibly or without due care, or failed to take reasonable steps to ensure our clients were treated and advised in the best possible manner.
Our legal system, with its solicitors, barristers, judges, and tribunals, is designed to uphold justice and fairness. I trust that our authorities, including HMRC, will adhere to these foundational principles of justice and fairness, ensuring that decisions are based on law and evidence, not influenced by the transient opinions and comments circulating on unregulated social media platforms
As citizens and businesses, the proper course is to seek the advice of solicitors or barristers, to obtain second opinions, and to be transparent with the authorities. We have adhered to these practices diligently and transparently, yet it seems fame and influence have outweighed these efforts.
Do we really want to live in a country where such dynamics are permissible? This is perilous for our legal system and emboldens influencers and fame-driven bloggers to wield undue power, capable of destroying people, businesses, and livelihoods without consequence.
To put it into context, Dan Neidle’s stance implies that the actions, advice, and opinions of Cotswold Barristers, Brett Wilson LLP, and Barrie Akin and Felicity Cullen KC of Devereaux Chambers, and many hundreds of other professional advisors, and the numerous checks by HMRC, should all be disregarded. According to him, Property118 has either been withholding information, or these esteemed legal professionals are so inept that we have managed to deceive them all into agreeing with us. This perspective is not only arrogant but also profoundly insulting to the legal profession—a field to which he once belonged. Such disdain and disrespect raises questions about his underlying motives.
Every piece of advice and opinion we have received through proper channels has confirmed our correctness. This includes HMRC, who up until Dan began publicising his dissenting views, had been satisfied with every single compliance check. These are all documented facts, openly shared.
Consider the implications if one were to seek professional legal advice in any area, receive a validated legal opinion, and then face opposition based on someone’s disagreement on social media, prompting authorities to follow the narrative promoted online.
This is precisely what has transpired with Property118 and every one of our clients on the firing line.
We stand resolute in our fight and will persevere to the very end, as every shred of professional advice we’ve received affirms our correctness. This battle isn’t merely a potential victory for Property118; it’s a crusade for justice, a testament to the effectiveness of our legal system. This is why I am calling on you to rally behind our cause and contribute to our crowdfunding effort. We are not retreating; we are fighting tooth and nail.
At Property118, we have taken every conceivable legal step and followed all expert advice to ensure our clients were safe and correct in our actions. This isn’t just our fight – even though we are at the forefront. While many other business owners in similar situations might have chosen to opt-out, washed their hands of the situation, or even declared bankruptcy, that is not our character. Walking away would leave our clients in the most perilous financial situation, forced to fund huge legal costs to battle alone. We are committed to seeing this through to the end, upholding our promise to defend and support our clients, no matter what.
Due to legal fees, redundancy payments, and a huge drop in income, our financial reserves are almost completely depleted. That is why we started the JustGiving crowdfunding campaign, which to date has successfully raised over £200,000 towards our £1,000,000 fundraising target.
We must prevail. To lose due to financial limitations would not only be a personal travesty but could also set dangerous precedents for the future.
Your support is crucial – please help us ensure that justice is served, and our legal system’s integrity is upheld.
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/property118-action-group
patricia sander
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Sign Up19:32 PM, 22nd July 2024, About 4 months ago
I guess I'm one of the people DN is trying to punish. My history with P118 is exactly as follows - I was a single mother with four young children, (now adults and tax payers). This is never less than a stressful experience and I made a living by buying/renovating old properties to rent out. I also did other jobs and never felt rich, still don't, and worked 7 days for years to keep everything going. I am 62 years old, have never taken a single government benefit, I now live in a tiny house with a mortgage with my youngest daughter and I actually think the vitriol of Dan Neidle, trying to overturn the multiple agreements of HMRC is actually going to make me bankrupt and I will lose my house. It's ironic that I have never, ever committed a crime or fraud in my entire life and have worked so hard to be financially independent. I'm no fat cat, nor is P118. I paid £400 in total to P118. For that I got a very long phone call, then a very detailed report back on my individual circumstances, loads of phone calls and assistance where I needed extra help and explanations, and to this day I am receiving support from Mark Alexander at no cost to me and no benefit to him. I don't understand the vitriol and ad hominem attacks DN is trying to create on social media, it seems so unprofessional from a 'magic circle' person and also I am still waiting to see exactly what P118 have done wrong except support landlords for a tiny amount of money (I have paid much more to very incompetent plasterers/painters/carpenters for just a couple of days work). I would also say say that the fees I paid to Cotswold Barristers were much more modest than that amounts that Dan Neidle is throwing around. I found the whole experience so helpful, it allowed me to continue after George Osborne's disastrous attack on Landlords. I'll never be a millionaire nor expected to be, I just wanted to make a living. Thank you Mark Alexander and Mark Smith, I found you to be decent people and continue to do so.
Edwin Cowper
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Sign Up19:34 PM, 22nd July 2024, About 4 months ago
As a lawyer, I support what Mark says, However I don't want to give my hard earned cash to a bottomless pit.
I suggest that you stop trading Mark and set up property 118 2024 or similar.
All of us have better things to do than fight lawyers and the HMRC. We can post on this information elsewhere
Life is too short.
Giving the appearance of this man winning doesn't matter. The fact will be otherwise
What we should do is refer this matter to our MPs. HMRC don't like MPs asking nasty questions. If anyone would like a draft letter I'd be happy to put one on site
Oliver D
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Sign Up19:39 PM, 22nd July 2024, About 4 months ago
Reply to the comment left by GlanACC at 22/07/2024 - 18:31
GlanACC, it's one thing to be "liable to interpretation by HMRC" and a completely different thing when HMRC has ALREADY interpreted the structure 20+ times as valid and then only to change their interepretation at a later stage.
It beggars belief how a government organization can behave in this way. If HMRC gets away with such bullying tactics, the ramifications will be much more significant to everyone who incorporated previously using any struture (not necessarily only that of p118).
If HMRC is not happy with what its legislations, manuals and historical cases imply, why not change them instead of abusing their power this way?
Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118
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Sign Up19:54 PM, 22nd July 2024, About 4 months ago
Reply to the comment left by Edwin Cowper at 22/07/2024 - 19:34
As a lawyer you should know that transitioning to a new company will not help anybody, especially our clients.
If you are happy to draft a letter to MP’s and share it here thats fine by me.
Please also confirm whether you are SRA or BSB regulated.
patricia sander
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Sign Up19:54 PM, 22nd July 2024, About 4 months ago
Reply to the comment left by Edwin Cowper at 22/07/2024 - 19:34
Agree, to a point. However, it's beyond belief that of all the people DN could chase, he's decided on a few people, mostly 60 plus, who were trying to supplement a state pension and not be a burden on the state, who will ultimately very much be a burden on the state if he gets his way. Is this the most corrupt he can find in the UK (bearing in mind no law breaking or fraud is involved?)
Bristol Landlord
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Sign Up20:20 PM, 22nd July 2024, About 4 months ago
I suspect the change in stance from HMRC is motivated not by any tax laws or desire for fairness or justice but either by undeclared Govt policy instructing HMRC to do this or Whitehall mandarins independently not wanting to be seen by the new Govt to condone the temerity of P118 to advise landlords on how to “get away” with “cheating” the system, even if the advice is actually all legal.
I wonder, has the situation become worse since the previous PM called for a General Election?
Obviously, which P118 didn’t realise when this began, it is that only the “connected”, the politicians, the corporations, the billionaires and the multi-millionaire PMs who are allowed to cheat the tax system, the “little” people have to pay and pay and pay..,,,
Whatever the malevolent forces behind the HMRC change of mind it is clearly another front in the continuing Tory begun War on Landlords, therefore the roots of this disgraceful attitude by HMRC could also possibly be political or Govt corruption.
It’s also possible once HMRC saw that P118 were legally correct and could possibly win in court they had to get down and dirty in order to put an end to this challenge to State power by the insolent P118.
It could also be instructive to take a deep dive into exactly who are Dan the Needle’s friends and contacts as he may well be a proxy for other more powerful individuals who are hiding in the shadows. I suspect he is not doing this just for his ego but for a definite purpose and probable reward.
Bemused
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Sign Up0:16 AM, 23rd July 2024, About 4 months ago
Reply to the comment left by patricia sander at 22/07/2024 - 19:32
Patricia your story is very similar to mine and you echo my sentiments perfectly. I'm not sorry for myself, I've made a living playing fair and square. The hit on interest relief was a curved ball with no way to turn. Had I put the same amount of money into a pension, I woudl have got tax relief and appreciation. Instead I chose to make property my income/pension. it's all very unfair.
GlanACC
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Sign Up7:33 AM, 23rd July 2024, About 4 months ago
To be honest, you can't blame HMRC for trying. There are so many tax rules that there are bound to be many loopholes which will allow complex schemes to avoid tax (not evade !) to be attempted. I guess this is one of them. I understand why people try to use it to save money (even though of using it myself), but in the end many of these schemes are inviting closer scrutiny.
If the scheme is simple then I would use it. Eg to avoid national insurance I used to buy pretty much everything in my company name and just pay the tax on benefit in kind (Think it was Gordon Brown that put paid to that) - this was simple to understand and was recommended by my accountant. However simple schemes are no longer there as all the low hanging loopholes have been plugged.
So, for me its now the KISS principle - Keep It Simple Stupid.
Ranjan Bhattacharya
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Sign Up8:44 AM, 23rd July 2024, About 4 months ago
Dan Neidle twists the narrative and lies in his posts to sensationalise this discussion. I find it amusing that so many commenters on his posts are Ambulance chasing so called ‘professionals’ saying ‘come to me if you are affected by this!!
Dan Niedle downloaded one of my videos on Smart Companies from my Youtube channel and uploaded it in its entirety to his own Youtube channel. This was clearly an attempt to build subscribers on his brand new youtube channel by stealing my copyrighted material.
We contacted Youtube who immediately served him with a Copyright strike and the video was removed from his channel.
He has continued on the path of copyright theft and uploaded it to his own website.
Laughably, he describes the video (which he has embedded on his website article and LinkedIn post), as being about Capital Account Restructure. The video is in fact Mark Alexander and myself talking about alphabet shares, smart companies and family investment companies.
I can think of only two possibilities here:
(1) Dan Niedle has such little grasp of the issues that he can’t differentiate between a video on incorporation/CAR and Alphabet shares/Smart Co’s?
(2) He doesn’t care. He just writes, claiming the video as evidence, then copy/pastes any video under the assumption the majority will just read the headline and first paragraph but will not watch the video or go into the detail?
Which is it (1) or (2)?
However, some people do read the post and watch the video and question what DN is saying.
There are people openly asking whether alphabet shares are ‘legit’ and what it has to do with Capital Account Restructure and the STOP notice. A quick read of DN’s responses to people asking these questions tells you all you need to know!
Mark Alexander - Founder of Property118
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Sign Up9:30 AM, 23rd July 2024, About 4 months ago
A search on Google for the phrase Capital Account Restructure provides a link to a PDF on the croner-i website as follows ...
https://www.property118.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Withdrawing-capital-from-the-business.pdf
Simon's Taxes, published by Lexis Nexis, which is regarded by the tax and law sector as the leading expert guidance says ...
"The incorporation of a buy-to-let property business may involve refinancing the existing mortgages which could possibly prevent HMRC applying ESC/D32. If the company does not assume the same liabilities of the transferor, but instead raises finance of its own, which is passed to the transferor to settle its debts related to the properties being transferred, there is considerable risk that HMRC might choose not to apply its concession."
AND ...
"If there is a substantial capital account in the unincorporated business, the business owner(s) should be advised to draw this down before incorporation, otherwise that capital will be locked into the value of the shares."
The Chartered Institute of Taxation wrote to HMRC on 28th February 2024 to remind them of the history of ESC/D32 and to question uncertainties following the investigation into Property118. HMRC has yet to respond. A link to the CIOT letter is below.
https://www.property118.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Uncertainties-in-relation-to-the-application-of-ESC-D32.pdf
Dan Neidle and his band of not so merry men all say that nobody in the tax sector agrees with Property118. The above proves otherwise.
On one of his LinkedIn post, Mr Neidle also advised me to take a look around the room to see what others were saying. I did exactly that and came to the very similar conclusions to Ranjan.