Further to my last piece about the Rise of the Private Rental Sector, I have unearthed this Reform the private rented sector and open up access to home ownership and social housing, says JRF | JRF
One...
For those that are unaware of the history let us examine how and why the Private Rental Sector came to be so prominent over the preceding decades. Housing became a legitimate and sound financial investment...
I would not go near it after reading this https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-12326625/Havering-council-wont-house-TONY-HETHERINGTON-investigates.html... Read More
Please read my earlier post on this very topic. I think it is the 8th in the thread but there or thereabouts.
In a nutshell some words/phrases have different meanings according to the the audience being either fellow specialists or the general public.... Read More
Very quiet about this piece on social media apart from pulling Mark to bits over his choice of words. The terms "in house" and scheme" being the issue. These people are so arrogant that they have not taken into account the use of specialist terminology v those same terms when used to address a general audience or that wonderful “person on the Clapham Omnibus”. The readers of this site are very much the general public, and it was us he was addressing because he simply does not need to explain himself to the anyone but HMRC. Allow me to explain, there a are common us-age words and there are times when those same words are used by specialists to mean something very specific.
A good example would be the term “insignificant”. To the person on the Clapham Omnibus, it means irrelevant/unimportant. To a mathematician or a statistician, it does not mean that at all! The following is from Wikipedia:
“…….The technique for testing the statistical significance of results was developed in the early 20th century. The term significance does not imply importance here, and the term statistical significance is not the same as research significance, theoretical significance, or practical significance. For example, the term clinical significance refers to the practical importance of a treatment effect…..”
So, when you are a professional speaking to another professional in the same or a similar field you are all on the same page with the terminology. Mark was NOT ad-dressing accountants and tax professionals he was addressing the person on the Clapham Omnibus. I don’t want to put words in his mouth but I think of the term SIS as being an internal framework used by staff at CB. The term somehow became commonplace amongst those using it.
However, when you have to explain to outsiders then “in house” and “scheme” have the usual common everyday meaning.
They have not rubbished or poured scorn on anything else Mark has said thus far.... Read More
No it does not work like that. It would be wonderful if you could say "these are my circumstances, can I do this?" and have them come back with a yes that is fine or no you can't.
If you have full time employment elsewhere you will not likely be able to claim that you are running a business for example. It is the business side of things that make Capital Gains Tax relief a possibility and that might alter whether it is worth incorporating. Every case has to be looked at to see what is achievable. The right thing might be to stay as you are or sell.
I am not concerned with mortgages because I don't have any but because lots of people do I have asked Dan Neidle the following on on his website: "I am not on Linkedin but somebody sent me a link to an article written by someone I think you might approve of and in it it says “…….We have been involved with a significant, mainstream, property lender whose legal department advised us that they were happy with the proposed terms of a deed of trust not requiring a re-mortgage at incorporation……”
So while it might be uncommon would I be right it thinking that it is not illegal?
The chap that wrote it is David Conlan and it is on Linkedin called “Property Letting Business – Transfer to Limited Company – There is no “Master Template”. “Bespoke, bespoke, bespoke”
It is dated yesterday."
He usually answers questions unless another question is almost the same and he would be repeating himself.... Read More
I would agree with you if this was happening at the local golf or bridge club as in it is all rather unpleasant and distasteful . I am sure we all know people that we would rather not spend time with unless we really must, but this is commercially damaging.
There are consequences to ignoring this sort of discredit which unfortunately are not limited to Mark and Property118. It has caused immense stress for past clients and it will likely dissuade those considering incorporation with them to reconsider. However, it is NOT incorporation that landlords are being warned about. No, no it is a sensible solution for some. It is Mark and Property118 that people are being made wary of.
It is a perfect example of an ad hominem attack.
1. Short for argumentum ad hominem: A fallacious objection to an argument or factual claim by appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argu-ment or producing evidence against the claim; an attempt to argue against an opponent's idea by discrediting the opponent themself.
I am saddened to see professionals using such tactics. A better approach might have been to say that The Property118 methods had been brought to their attention and that they had referred the matter to HMRC. They would report back if/when there was anything more to say.
We shall all have to wait and see if HMRC issue a stop notice after it has been brought to their attention.... Read More
There is a very obvious reason why you might arrange your choices about how you arrange your or your companies "ownership" and that is the delays at the Land Registry. I just had a quick Google and the longest they have taken is 2 years. They do say that "......The legal interests of the applicant are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, regardless of how long it then takes to complete...."
However, if the issue causing all the problems is around legal v beneficial ownership and your company can be afforded beneficial ownership for the interim why would that be a problem?... Read More
To me the way in which this is being handled is very unedifying. The advice you give is either sound or it is not. The BICT is either compliant with HMRC or it is not.
This saga seems to me to be less about what is being advised than who is giving the advice.
Years ago I had horses and had a run in with a vet about something which was "animal husbandry" that is things that people experienced with animals can legally do such as farmers, zoo keepers, farriers etc. This seems to me to be of the same type of argument. There are some things which undoubtedly call for a well trained legal mind and other things that can be done by a competent person that can read.
I daresay that Property118 will be brought to the attention of HMRC (again) and you will be exonerated or you will not.
None of this is easy to read about if you are a client or thinking of becoming one - which I suppose is the purpose of the reporting.... Read More
I have now read and had time to digest an article on the website taxpolicy.org.uk and have the following comments.
They would be right about generic advice but my husband and I had bespoke advice.
They advise anyone that has already entered into dealings with Property118 as follows “………We would strongly suggest you seek advice from an independent tax professional, in particular a tax lawyer or an accountant who is a member of a regulated tax body (e.g. ACCA, ATT, CIOT, ICAEW, ICAS or STEP)………”
How wonderful, I am so glad because I was put in touch with a member of STEP via Property118 when it came to finalising our plans. Said person never once raised any warnings or advised us to hesitate or reconsider.
I do not have a crystal ball so I shall refrain from make predictions, but I would like to take a step back in history and compare and contrast how far professional ethics and standards have fallen over the past couple of decades.
I used to work for a large firm of London solicitors in the 70s and none of them would ever have put an article like that into print. They would have had a genuine fear of “bringing the profession into disrepute”. Besmirching and denigrating fellow professionals would have been considered beneath them. Differences of opinion would be settled behind closed doors, in Court or at a lawful tribunal.
The writer of the article seems to be acting as some sort of “agony uncle” at the behest of a would-be client or at least to someone curious as to the business model of Property118. They no doubt think they are a “whistle blower” trying to save people from both their own greed and that of Property118.
It is people’s own greed that makes them go into business in the first place. Or to save or to work or to study. They want more and better and there is a fine line between greed and ambition.
Depending upon your own ethics and politics ambition, enthusiasm and drive are welcome and admired or classed as greed and avarice.
Is it greed to want to keep more of what you earn, or your assets generate for you and your family? That is the question behind any and all tax and accounting inquiry.... Read More
The Loan Schemes you mention are nothing at all like the Directors loan which some (not all) people can have if they follow the advice from Property118. I am not paying myself a salary via a loan. I am not using a "disguised renumeration service". HMRC have never approved of such loans. This is in complete contrast the the well documented available for all to see HMRC tax manual quotes that Property118 provide. Anyway we shall wait and see what happens next.
However so far the HMRC have disbanded the group it set up to investigate Family Investment Companies. Anyone that has been questioned by HMRC about their incorporation with Property118 has had no further action than a letter asking for clarification. Last but not least the team of Mark Alexander and Mark Smith have already made financial and legal history with their West Bromwich Mortgage Company outcome. I know who I am backing in this skirmish.... Read More
Some of mine have increased and I was told that the reason is since Grenfell they have to have extra inspections to make sure that communal hallways and stairs are not obstructed. People tend to leave prams or bikes outside their flats but not in the lockups provided. Plus they have had to provide more lighting in the same areas.... Read More
I would not do it. If this link comes out you will see why https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/experts/article-12326625/Havering-council-wont-house-TONY-HETHERINGTON-investigates.html... Read More
They might have decided not to set up a Smart company (yet). Everyone is given the options that the team decide suits their personal circumstances. For instance these people had debts so they would not have been given the information that my husband and I were given because we were not only mortgage free but had considerable equity. I don't know how often it needs to be repeated that the advice is bespoke rather than generic. We are extremely happy with what Property118 did for us - we had several meetings and our accountant was in attendance at all of them. Plus they have very many testimonials from satisfied customers.... Read More
If you have 4 or more properties you might not have to pay Capital Gains tax or stamp duty because there are quite legitimate was to restructure your business assets. If you own them with someone else you might have a de facto partnership. If you don't have a partnership it might be wise to set one up. Honestly don't guess! If they can't help you you will get your consultation fee back so you have nothing to lose and might gain a great deal. Accountants and IFAs are not the same as tax planners and unless you have a reason to explore you tend to lump them all together. It is a bit like medical people in that they are all doctors until you need one and then you find out what sort of specialist is best for the problem you are facing.... Read More
This is why it really is important to have a bespoke consultation with Property118 because they will be able to take all of your personal aspects into account. My husband and I did just that and have no regrets at all - we are saving a fortune in tax. We went from both of us being higher rate tax payers to barely paying any income tax. So we are just fine but what is even better is that our (grown up) children will be so much better off. The advice was not cheap but it was worth it for us.... Read More
Dylan before you decide you really ought to have a bespoke consultation with Property118. You might find that you don't have to pay any Capital Gains Tax - I didn't and I paid £60k for some of mine that would be £200K now. I now find myself in a position where I went from being a higher rate tax payer to paying almost nothing because I can withdraw the equity I previously invested tax free.... Read More
9:55 AM, 7th November 2023, About A year ago
It did not work in Berlin https://www.pricedout.org.uk/rent-controls-answer/... Read More
11:36 AM, 2nd November 2023, About A year ago
I would not go near it after reading this https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-12326625/Havering-council-wont-house-TONY-HETHERINGTON-investigates.html... Read More
14:20 PM, 20th October 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by Jim Fraser at 20/10/2023 - 14:10
Please read my earlier post on this very topic. I think it is the 8th in the thread but there or thereabouts.
In a nutshell some words/phrases have different meanings according to the the audience being either fellow specialists or the general public.... Read More
17:38 PM, 19th October 2023, About A year ago
Very quiet about this piece on social media apart from pulling Mark to bits over his choice of words. The terms "in house" and scheme" being the issue. These people are so arrogant that they have not taken into account the use of specialist terminology v those same terms when used to address a general audience or that wonderful “person on the Clapham Omnibus”. The readers of this site are very much the general public, and it was us he was addressing because he simply does not need to explain himself to the anyone but HMRC. Allow me to explain, there a are common us-age words and there are times when those same words are used by specialists to mean something very specific.
A good example would be the term “insignificant”. To the person on the Clapham Omnibus, it means irrelevant/unimportant. To a mathematician or a statistician, it does not mean that at all! The following is from Wikipedia:
“…….The technique for testing the statistical significance of results was developed in the early 20th century. The term significance does not imply importance here, and the term statistical significance is not the same as research significance, theoretical significance, or practical significance. For example, the term clinical significance refers to the practical importance of a treatment effect…..”
So, when you are a professional speaking to another professional in the same or a similar field you are all on the same page with the terminology. Mark was NOT ad-dressing accountants and tax professionals he was addressing the person on the Clapham Omnibus. I don’t want to put words in his mouth but I think of the term SIS as being an internal framework used by staff at CB. The term somehow became commonplace amongst those using it.
However, when you have to explain to outsiders then “in house” and “scheme” have the usual common everyday meaning.
They have not rubbished or poured scorn on anything else Mark has said thus far.... Read More
18:59 PM, 17th October 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by Sarah83 at 17/10/2023 - 15:25
No it does not work like that. It would be wonderful if you could say "these are my circumstances, can I do this?" and have them come back with a yes that is fine or no you can't.
If you have full time employment elsewhere you will not likely be able to claim that you are running a business for example. It is the business side of things that make Capital Gains Tax relief a possibility and that might alter whether it is worth incorporating. Every case has to be looked at to see what is achievable. The right thing might be to stay as you are or sell.
I am not concerned with mortgages because I don't have any but because lots of people do I have asked Dan Neidle the following on on his website: "I am not on Linkedin but somebody sent me a link to an article written by someone I think you might approve of and in it it says “…….We have been involved with a significant, mainstream, property lender whose legal department advised us that they were happy with the proposed terms of a deed of trust not requiring a re-mortgage at incorporation……”
So while it might be uncommon would I be right it thinking that it is not illegal?
The chap that wrote it is David Conlan and it is on Linkedin called “Property Letting Business – Transfer to Limited Company – There is no “Master Template”. “Bespoke, bespoke, bespoke”
It is dated yesterday."
He usually answers questions unless another question is almost the same and he would be repeating himself.... Read More
14:40 PM, 17th October 2023, About A year ago
That last comment was in reply to Zen but I obviously forgot to click on "reply".... Read More
14:25 PM, 17th October 2023, About A year ago
I would agree with you if this was happening at the local golf or bridge club as in it is all rather unpleasant and distasteful . I am sure we all know people that we would rather not spend time with unless we really must, but this is commercially damaging.
There are consequences to ignoring this sort of discredit which unfortunately are not limited to Mark and Property118. It has caused immense stress for past clients and it will likely dissuade those considering incorporation with them to reconsider. However, it is NOT incorporation that landlords are being warned about. No, no it is a sensible solution for some. It is Mark and Property118 that people are being made wary of.
It is a perfect example of an ad hominem attack.
1. Short for argumentum ad hominem: A fallacious objection to an argument or factual claim by appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argu-ment or producing evidence against the claim; an attempt to argue against an opponent's idea by discrediting the opponent themself.
I am saddened to see professionals using such tactics. A better approach might have been to say that The Property118 methods had been brought to their attention and that they had referred the matter to HMRC. They would report back if/when there was anything more to say.
We shall all have to wait and see if HMRC issue a stop notice after it has been brought to their attention.... Read More
9:08 AM, 16th October 2023, About A year ago
There is a very obvious reason why you might arrange your choices about how you arrange your or your companies "ownership" and that is the delays at the Land Registry. I just had a quick Google and the longest they have taken is 2 years. They do say that "......The legal interests of the applicant are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, regardless of how long it then takes to complete...."
However, if the issue causing all the problems is around legal v beneficial ownership and your company can be afforded beneficial ownership for the interim why would that be a problem?... Read More
12:13 PM, 14th October 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by Honest landlord at 13/10/2023 - 15:47
... Read More
21:21 PM, 12th October 2023, About A year ago
To me the way in which this is being handled is very unedifying. The advice you give is either sound or it is not. The BICT is either compliant with HMRC or it is not.
This saga seems to me to be less about what is being advised than who is giving the advice.
Years ago I had horses and had a run in with a vet about something which was "animal husbandry" that is things that people experienced with animals can legally do such as farmers, zoo keepers, farriers etc. This seems to me to be of the same type of argument. There are some things which undoubtedly call for a well trained legal mind and other things that can be done by a competent person that can read.
I daresay that Property118 will be brought to the attention of HMRC (again) and you will be exonerated or you will not.
None of this is easy to read about if you are a client or thinking of becoming one - which I suppose is the purpose of the reporting.... Read More
13:55 PM, 5th October 2023, About A year ago
I have now read and had time to digest an article on the website taxpolicy.org.uk and have the following comments.
They would be right about generic advice but my husband and I had bespoke advice.
They advise anyone that has already entered into dealings with Property118 as follows “………We would strongly suggest you seek advice from an independent tax professional, in particular a tax lawyer or an accountant who is a member of a regulated tax body (e.g. ACCA, ATT, CIOT, ICAEW, ICAS or STEP)………”
How wonderful, I am so glad because I was put in touch with a member of STEP via Property118 when it came to finalising our plans. Said person never once raised any warnings or advised us to hesitate or reconsider.
I do not have a crystal ball so I shall refrain from make predictions, but I would like to take a step back in history and compare and contrast how far professional ethics and standards have fallen over the past couple of decades.
I used to work for a large firm of London solicitors in the 70s and none of them would ever have put an article like that into print. They would have had a genuine fear of “bringing the profession into disrepute”. Besmirching and denigrating fellow professionals would have been considered beneath them. Differences of opinion would be settled behind closed doors, in Court or at a lawful tribunal.
The writer of the article seems to be acting as some sort of “agony uncle” at the behest of a would-be client or at least to someone curious as to the business model of Property118. They no doubt think they are a “whistle blower” trying to save people from both their own greed and that of Property118.
It is people’s own greed that makes them go into business in the first place. Or to save or to work or to study. They want more and better and there is a fine line between greed and ambition.
Depending upon your own ethics and politics ambition, enthusiasm and drive are welcome and admired or classed as greed and avarice.
Is it greed to want to keep more of what you earn, or your assets generate for you and your family? That is the question behind any and all tax and accounting inquiry.... Read More
10:53 AM, 4th October 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by MessiahOfBodmin at 04/10/2023 - 10:11
The Loan Schemes you mention are nothing at all like the Directors loan which some (not all) people can have if they follow the advice from Property118. I am not paying myself a salary via a loan. I am not using a "disguised renumeration service". HMRC have never approved of such loans. This is in complete contrast the the well documented available for all to see HMRC tax manual quotes that Property118 provide. Anyway we shall wait and see what happens next.
However so far the HMRC have disbanded the group it set up to investigate Family Investment Companies. Anyone that has been questioned by HMRC about their incorporation with Property118 has had no further action than a letter asking for clarification. Last but not least the team of Mark Alexander and Mark Smith have already made financial and legal history with their West Bromwich Mortgage Company outcome. I know who I am backing in this skirmish.... Read More
23:12 PM, 3rd October 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by Justin Lee at 03/10/2023 - 22:56
... Read More
11:57 AM, 31st July 2023, About A year ago
Some of mine have increased and I was told that the reason is since Grenfell they have to have extra inspections to make sure that communal hallways and stairs are not obstructed. People tend to leave prams or bikes outside their flats but not in the lockups provided. Plus they have had to provide more lighting in the same areas.... Read More
11:37 AM, 25th July 2023, About A year ago
I would not do it. If this link comes out you will see why https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/experts/article-12326625/Havering-council-wont-house-TONY-HETHERINGTON-investigates.html... Read More
16:13 PM, 15th June 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by SCP at 15/06/2023 - 10:53
They might have decided not to set up a Smart company (yet). Everyone is given the options that the team decide suits their personal circumstances. For instance these people had debts so they would not have been given the information that my husband and I were given because we were not only mortgage free but had considerable equity. I don't know how often it needs to be repeated that the advice is bespoke rather than generic. We are extremely happy with what Property118 did for us - we had several meetings and our accountant was in attendance at all of them. Plus they have very many testimonials from satisfied customers.... Read More
10:53 AM, 13th June 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by rbinscotland at 13/06/2023 - 09:28
If you have 4 or more properties you might not have to pay Capital Gains tax or stamp duty because there are quite legitimate was to restructure your business assets. If you own them with someone else you might have a de facto partnership. If you don't have a partnership it might be wise to set one up. Honestly don't guess! If they can't help you you will get your consultation fee back so you have nothing to lose and might gain a great deal. Accountants and IFAs are not the same as tax planners and unless you have a reason to explore you tend to lump them all together. It is a bit like medical people in that they are all doctors until you need one and then you find out what sort of specialist is best for the problem you are facing.... Read More
15:51 PM, 9th June 2023, About A year ago
Reply to the comment left by rbinscotland at 09/06/2023 - 10:48
This is why it really is important to have a bespoke consultation with Property118 because they will be able to take all of your personal aspects into account. My husband and I did just that and have no regrets at all - we are saving a fortune in tax. We went from both of us being higher rate tax payers to barely paying any income tax. So we are just fine but what is even better is that our (grown up) children will be so much better off. The advice was not cheap but it was worth it for us.... Read More
15:48 PM, 27th April 2023, About 2 years ago
Reply to the comment left by Dylan Morris at 27/04/2023 - 15:31
Dylan before you decide you really ought to have a bespoke consultation with Property118. You might find that you don't have to pay any Capital Gains Tax - I didn't and I paid £60k for some of mine that would be £200K now. I now find myself in a position where I went from being a higher rate tax payer to paying almost nothing because I can withdraw the equity I previously invested tax free.... Read More
15:40 PM, 27th April 2023, About 2 years ago
Reply to the comment left by JB at 27/04/2023 - 14:42
RCI bank great returns and no hassle! For the moment at least.... Read More